Is small cow size a myth?

[Dega Moo]

BRG is going off what people say.. "you can run 20% more cows per acre when you reduce the size of the cow from 1400, to 1100 lbs". It's not a very scientific one indeed as it doesn't take into account individual traits, but I guess for a herd as a whole, perhaps it does run true. I don't consider a 1400 lb cow a large cow either.. that to me is about 1800+ lbs. The arguments wasn't based on how many pounds of cows you have, just the number and weight.

If you run more cows, you will need more bulls and more replacement heifers... I can't see anyone disagreeing with that too much. Agreed that not everyone has to buy bulls at market value, but that holds true for both the 1100 lb herd and the 1400 lb herd., which makes it a moot point... more cows do need more bulls.

AllForage.. lush grass and full round bale feeders make it easy for any cow, no? december through February I usually feed out my rougher, first cut hay at about 25-30 lb/hd/day, though a bit more if it's below 0F. The cows never get grain. We don't have round bales because we don't have enough cattle to be able to dole out the *right* amount of food per day. the last month and a half of gestation I increase the feed a little, and after calving they get better hay... I'm not in the business of throwing hay away, so they get just as much as they'll nicely clean up.
I think your market plays a huge role in what type of animal you select, as well your conditions.

Dega moo, don't forget to add in vaccine, ear tags, etc, and any way you cut the cake, it's going to take more time to do any procedure to 20% more cattle, so whatever costs you do have pertaining to that, do go up. The only thing we are holding constant here is the feed we give them.

Your argument for 636 head instead of 600 doesn't quite hold.. A cow that is twice as heavy doesn't eat twice as much, it is a little less than that. A lot of it is geometry, and this is a seperate from efficiency! So 636 head (700,000 lbs of cow) will EAT MORE than 500 head (700,000 lbs of cow) of the bigger cows.

No size is perfect, and I think the point of BRG's original post was to crunch your numbers well, and gives an instance where popular belief may not be quite as it seems. Your market, as is the case with AllForage, works better with the smaller animal due to different marketing approaches...

Nesi - not to be argumentative but I've not seen any well accepted study that makes that case. Using that logic then, if I had 1700 pound cows could I get 740,000 pounds of cattle on the same feed as 600 1100 pound cows? And then again, if I ran 2000 pound cows could I get 780,000 pounds of cows on the same feed?

Every nutritional guideline I've seen suggests specific amounts of dry matter feed based on the nutritional profile of the feed per hundred weight of the cow and not on a sliding scale based on cow size. As to management costs (tags, vacs, handling costs), you are correct for the most part although most vaccines are applied at a rate per cwt and theoretically would wash out.

Still the behemoth in the argument is the revenue that is not recognized because of the unaccounted for 36 cows. Even if it costs me $100 per cow per year for yardage, meds etc for each of the extra cows, that's a blip against revenue that isn't accounted.

You may be correct about BRG's intentions, but I really didn't read it that way.

 

[Nesikep]

I have both sizes of cows and can be certain that the 2000 lb cow doesn't eat twice as much as the 1000 lb cow, and this is particularly true during the winter and non-milking periods... I think she eats about 1.5 times that of the 1000 lb cow if you average it througout the year.

There's a reason dairies have big cows and feed them like heck, If small cows were more efficient, there wouldn't be a holstein in a dairy anywhere... and they have all the tools to measure efficiency on a per-individual basis.

I think you are correct, that you ran 2000 lb cows, you would run 780,000 lbs of COWS on the same feed, but that's not saying it will be more profitable because you'll be down to 390 head... I believe it's a bit of a bell-curve... there's a happy spot at the top, because you might be able to run ONE 900,000 lb cow on that feed or 20,000 minis, and neither one will be any good for the bottom line.

If my guesstimate numbers are remotely close on the 2000 lb cow eating 1.5 times what the 1000 lb cow eats, as an average through the year, I"ll do some math...
for my guesstimate... x stands for food intake.. so 2x

2* x (double the cow size) = 1.5(times the food intake) thus x = 1.5/2 thus x = .75

x = 1100/1400 1100 lb cows eat a certain ratio of what 1400 lb cows eat
x = 1100/1400
x = .78
Off by 3%.. I seriously didn't think it would be that close, but it would indicate that you can indeed feed 600 1100 lb cows on the same feed as 500 1400 lb cows, where a cow eats 1.5 times as much if you double her weight...

This is a run of the mill average on cows, not the most efficient small cow versus an inefficient big cow of course.. I think we've established that though

We're doing a great job of not being argumentative! I hope you don't take any offense, as I assure you I am not (I'm actually aiming to reduce the max cow size to about 1400)

 

[Chuckie]

I remember when I had horses, a man had a couple of Belgians, he brought down for me to keep for a little while.
I kept cutting their feed back because they were getting fatter because they weren't pulling anything. They ate less than the smaller horses.

 

[inyati13]

I don't spend effort engaging in determining the most efficient cow. I find my rewards in the vocation of taking the best care of my cows that I can and the joy that comes from producing good calves. Having confessed that, I like to think that I am selecting cows and semen that produce good stock and efficency should be part of that. The years it would take for me to gain the personal experience to make that kind of determination does not seem possible at my age. I will soon be 64. I am fit but I know the remaining years are limited. Nevertheless, I am natually observant. I have cows that carry more condition than others on the same feed. They are not different breeds, in fact, they have similiar genetic pedigrees. There are innate physiological differences that make one mammal more efficient than the next. It certainly would provide a competitive benefit in a natural selection scenario. I have two simangus cows who will stick their nose into the feeder but never take a mouthfull. They have more condition than my other cows who run to the feeder and push everyone else aside to get the most they can.

It has occurred to me that if I were going to perform a study of the efficency of a cow in converting feed to body mass, it would be a challenge to conclude that cow A, B and C convert more feed to body mass than cow D, E and F, but what are the physiological mechanisms that are at work? In other words, if it is not breed and pedigree related in my herd, then what do you select for? My point is: it may be more myth than the studies are indicating. We have had this discussion before: research has its limitations and many studies are biased. Disclaimer: I am not disparaging the studies or research. I only see that it would be difficult.

 

[houstoncutter]

If it takes 5 bulls to breed 100 cows, you either got the wrong bulls or wrong cows or both.

 

[ANAZAZI]

If it takes 5 bulls to breed 100 cows, you either got the wrong bulls or wrong cows or both.

Agreed. Or possibly completely horrible terrain...

 

[ANAZAZI]

I remember when I had horses, a man had a couple of Belgians, he brought down for me to keep for a little while.
I kept cutting their feed back because they were getting fatter because they weren't pulling anything. They ate less than the smaller horses.

The belgians may sure be feed efficient, but it might not be that easy.
The requirements of horses on vacation are not only low because they are not pulling anything, their muscle mass is also on decline and that frees lots of energy too. It is quite possible that the horses lose lots of body weight while gaining fat.

 

[Chuckie]

ANAZAZI, I have yet to see any animal running laps around a pasture. :lol2: We would be in a real mess with cattle taking them to the sale barn if they were doing this. Horses too as far as feeding them.

The Belgians were on vacation before they came to my house. I had occasionally hitched them up with a couple of horses I was teaching not be afraid of cars while pulling a buggy. I would put the Belgian to the outside of the road, and the horse to the side of the cars. The Belgian would not let the horse go anywhere as it panicked. Even at that, the ride was not hard for the big horse as the ground was flat. The other horse was pulling too, and not slacking off.

I would alternate horses because the man wanted me to use both horses as he used them seasonally.
When I finished working them, I continued to care for them because he had let me use them. They still ate less than what my other horses ate during the time of pulling the wagon, and ate less afterwards.

 

[Cross breeder #1]

If it takes 5 bulls to breed 100 cows, you either got the wrong bulls or wrong cows or both.

Pay attention, I said 100 heifers. Five bulls are be needed even in not so rough terrain because they are inexperienced and 1 or 2 of them might slack off.

 

[houstoncutter]

If it takes 5 bulls to breed 100 cows, you either got the wrong bulls or wrong cows or both.

Pay attention, I said 100 heifers. Five bulls are be needed even in not so rough terrain because they are inexperienced and 1 or 2 of them might slack off.

Heard you the first time , thee bulls at the most and two bulls if they were three year olds. Done it many a time along the Gulf Coast. This is one of the most difficult places in the country on cattle. Bulls breeding in 95 degree temps with 80 % humidity .

Of course most commercial guys are going to by bred heifers to begin with anyway. Growing your own just doesn't make sound financial sense or good cow sense. You loose hybrid vigor with your crosses . If it's purebred it makes even less since because then your saying that 40 % of your heifers are worthy of being replacement heifers

 

[Blonde d'Aquitaine]

That is the beef cow that we like in Germany: http://bit.ly/beefcow. What do you think about her?

 

[alexfarms]

That is the beef cow that we like in Germany: http://bit.ly/beefcow. What do you think about her?

Nice udder. Heavy muscle, should make her weigh heavy. How big is she?

 

[Waterway65]

The difference between 1100 and 1400 lb cows! So much is management. How were they grown out? How are they maintained? I maintain my cows with more flesh than most. I believe once they are in this kind of shape it dosnt cost that much more to maintain them and comes back in a tar calf weight. This area is famous for getting by on a minimum of feed and thinner smaller cos but I don't agree with it. Age is another consideration to average herd size. A younger herd will be lighter. I feel good when a fat 9 yr old cow weighs 1500 to 1550. One person on here stated that since they had a new scale they weighed everything and used the results heavily in there management. I believe that was very wise advice! Mel

 

[alexfarms]

I've read somewhere, probably from the AHA, that when we compare cow weights we are supposed to adjust weights to mature age and body condition score 5.5. I don't know what the adjustment factors or if all breeds adjust to the same standards.

 

[Chuckie]

Blonde d' That is a good looking cow and heifer. I really like the heifer.

 

[Blonde d'Aquitaine]

Before calving she was 1874 lb

 

[highgrit]

This is very interesting to me. I don't see how you can manage for a 1100 lb.cow. We are always looking for cows that hold condition and raise the nicest calves. The one's that don't are the first ones to be culled. So just through natural selection the larger framed cows have an advantage. Around here it seems the larger cows ween bigger calves.

 

[alexfarms]

Before calving she was 1874 lb

She looks like she is in the 5.5 bcs area. Is she mature, or how old is she? If you wanna figure which is most efficient you're gonna have to set some standards. Do you want to maximize beef production per acre per year or per cow per year? How much does cow weight affect your stocking rates and winter feed costs? Home raised feed or purchased feed? Owned pasture or rented pasture or what method will you base land cost on?

Winter feed costs and land costs are huge factors. Where I used to live, in northeast Nebraska we ran a pAir per acre and that land is selling for $9000/acre. Here in Kansas we run 1 pair per 6 acres and lands bringing $2000 per acre. It's gonna depend on land values in your area and feed availability.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

The difference between 1100 and 1400 lb cows! So much is management. How were they grown out? How are they maintained?

This is very true, you can have the same genetics in the same environment but managed grown and maintained differently and they can be 300 lbs difference or more in mature weight at the same time in the production cycle.