Irish Blacks

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Too bad he didn't make that descision 5 years ago. I would probably be raising them right now.

Doc you and i both know that they are good cattle. Maybe more of a cowboys cattle but definately a beef machine and a quality beef machine at that.

Do they have their faults(which i won't go into here) yes but the biggest impediment to their popularity has been Mr Bonny's reluctance to give up any control over the breed.

They need three things in my opinion EPD's, a better breed book, and the ability for folks to use them as they see fit!
 
cross_7":32o1tc0o said:
In a word - YES.

DOC HARRIS


What are the stipulations on the trademarked cattle ?



It is common knowledge that a number of the major beef breeds have been infused with the blood of other breeds. How did so many of the beef breeds become black? This infusion of outside blood has resulted in increasing their gene pools to such a broad base that a number of the most essential gene traits have been lost.

It has been our intent and goal to protect our small highly concentrated gene pool from having this infusion of out side blood. To accomplish our goal, we battled the Washington D.C., "bureaucrats" for three years in getting a Federal Registered Patent Trademark. We operate under this trademark here in the U.S. and in Canada. Our rules and regulations are different that the bulk of the other beef breeds.

We do not recognize percentages in a breeding up program. To protect our small highly concentrated dominant gene pool from the infusion of the blood of other breeds, buyers of our purebred animals, semen and embryos, sign a Trademark Contract License Agreement.



 
3waycross":1hgxjui4 said:
Too bad he didn't make that descision 5 years ago. I would probably be raising them right now.

Doc you and i both know that they are good cattle. Maybe more of a cowboys cattle but definately a beef machine and a quality beef machine at that.

Do they have their faults(which i won't go into here) yes but the biggest impediment to their popularity has been Mr Bonny's reluctance to give up any control over the breed.

They need three things in my opinion EPD's, a better breed book, and the ability for folks to use them as they see fit!

3way,

I am curious as why you see the need for epd's with these cattle? Based on not knowing much about them except their claim to being a closed herd since ?. If one was looking into a closed population, wouldn't knowing the breeders consistent long term selection pressure coupled with real world data be enough? Then understanding the breeder's climate and forage base in order to translate that info into what the buyer's resources are be enough? Given that they are line bred and raised under a arid environment, it will take time and additional years of selection to bring them up to pace in a more lush place for example. I want to know what these cattle actually do and not what numbers propose they do.
 
AllForage":3pn82e6e said:
3waycross":3pn82e6e said:
Too bad he didn't make that descision 5 years ago. I would probably be raising them right now.

Doc you and i both know that they are good cattle. Maybe more of a cowboys cattle but definately a beef machine and a quality beef machine at that.

Do they have their faults(which i won't go into here) yes but the biggest impediment to their popularity has been Mr Bonny's reluctance to give up any control over the breed.

They need three things in my opinion EPD's, a better breed book, and the ability for folks to use them as they see fit!

3way,

I am curious as why you see the need for epd's with these cattle? Based on not knowing much about them except their claim to being a closed herd since ?. If one was looking into a closed population, wouldn't knowing the breeders consistent long term selection pressure coupled with real world data be enough? Then understanding the breeder's climate and forage base in order to translate that info into what the buyer's resources are be enough? Given that they are line bred and raised under a arid environment, it will take time and additional years of selection to bring them up to pace in a more lush place for example. I want to know what these cattle actually do and not what numbers propose they do.

I am not going to get into a long winded argument on why to use EPD's. I will say this though. I am a record keeper when it comes to my cattle and i really like a certain amount of predictability. I believe EPD's give us that. What i really believe is that in a closed herd that is really pretty small they could do a great job of establishing them and keeping a lot of the BS out of the process.

Despite what Maurice and Guy Gould say they are not all like peas in a pod. They are however pretty good cattle, and i respect what they have done with them!
 
My whole point was not a epd debate. Line breeding creates built in "epds" that are walking in the pasture. The predictability within his herd is the real data that he has. If he has been reproducing it consistently then what else do you need?

BTW, I agree the trademark thing is a bit over the top. He should have just created his own herd book and made it a closed one. If folks used his bulls and made great claims of improvement I would view that as flattery.
 
AllForage":3vzmjphu said:
My whole point was not a epd debate. Line breeding creates built in "epds" that are walking in the pasture. The predictability within his herd is the real data that he has. If he has been reproducing it consistently then what else do you need?

BTW, I agree the trademark thing is a bit over the top. He should have just created his own herd book and made it a closed one. If folks used his bulls and made great claims of improvement I would view that as flattery.



I agree!
 
3waycross":1sifte61 said:
AllForage":1sifte61 said:
My whole point was not a epd debate. Line breeding creates built in "epds" that are walking in the pasture. The predictability within his herd is the real data that he has. If he has been reproducing it consistently then what else do you need?

BTW, I agree the trademark thing is a bit over the top. He should have just created his own herd book and made it a closed one. If folks used his bulls and made great claims of improvement I would view that as flattery.



I agree!

Gentlemen-

I also agree.

As the testimonials that I presented in the web site of the Irish Blacks signify, the breeders who actually have used the IB's in their beef business programs can affirm and warrant their enthusiastic assimilation of the Irish Blacks in their cattle breeding agendas.

The caveat here may be minimized by the fact that Mr. Boney utilized DNA enhanced Traits and Characteristics to justify his claimed Irish Blacks and Reds beef qualities. In my opinion, the Irish Blacks Breed is a collection of very high quality genetic materials. How their pedigree information and potential performance data is utilized is dependant upon the integrity of the breeders and producers who intelligently and honestly incorporate that knowledge into their management protocols.

DOC HARRIS
 
Hey Doc,

All I see is carcass and feedlot info. Where is the cow side on all of this. Why should a cow/calf guy hang himself out there with these cows?
 
3waycross":1l3vrbk1 said:
Taurus":1l3vrbk1 said:
I have no idea that Irish black cattle existed in U.S....


Why wouldn't they exist in the US they were developed here by a man named Maurice Bonny the main genetic source was as i understand it friesien(beef type).
What I am saying that I have no idea that they existed. I wondered why no one mentioned Irish Blacks/Reds or why they don't get enough attention from the cattlemen.
 
Taurus":2yeweifa said:
3waycross":2yeweifa said:
Taurus":2yeweifa said:
I have no idea that Irish black cattle existed in U.S....


Why wouldn't they exist in the US they were developed here by a man named Maurice Bonny the main genetic source was as i understand it friesien(beef type).
What I am saying that I have no idea that they existed. I wondered why no one mentioned Irish Blacks/Reds or why they don't get enough attention from the cattlemen.

Read the whole thread. They trademarked the cattle and they make you sign a restrictive agreement as to how you can use THEIR cattle. It puts a lot of people off!
 
AllForage":1bv8jh6o said:
Hey Doc,

All I see is carcass and feedlot info. Where is the cow side on all of this. Why should a cow/calf guy hang himself out there with these cows?

AllForage-

I understand your apprehension and concern completely!

I told myself a few years ago that I was not going to get involved in this "Irish Blacks"/Maurice Boney/Copyright embroilment any more than I had already become by attempting to convince Mr. Boney of the expediency of accepting the reality of the usage of EPD's in the current Beef Producing World. I had many long and sometimes quite "heated" face-to-face verbal exchanges with Maurice in my attempt to convince him to get "up-to-date" with the majority of the beef breeding communities in regard to the emphasis of the use of EPD's in his breeding herd. This effort was approached as much with emphasis toward merchandising and advertising his cattle as it was in improving his protocols in breeding decisions and selection of seedstock - INCLUDING - carcass and feedlot traits and characteristics - both qualitative and quantitative. The result, literally, was like talking to a wall! :bang:
One might even associate the experience as - :deadhorse:

Therefore, the website that you find currently on the Internet is a result of everything that Eric Grant (Current Angus Association "Director of Public Relations" and PR GUY on CattleToday) and I could convince him to accept.

This is my opinion: If the breeder's of Irish Blacks and Irish Reds cattle would compose themselves, and establish a pragmatic and reasonable EPD program, and intelligently publicize the Irish Blacks & Reds qualities, stressing carcass and feedlot merits, the entire Beef Cattle Breeds communities and the beef-eating consumers would benefit. The Irish Blacks roasts, rib-eye steaks, Filet Mignon's that I have eaten were the most delicious, flavorful, marbled, and juiciest I have ever eaten! :roll:

. . . and I have no dog in this fight!

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":1fdypn3l said:
AllForage":1fdypn3l said:
Hey Doc,

All I see is carcass and feedlot info. Where is the cow side on all of this. Why should a cow/calf guy hang himself out there with these cows?

AllForage-

I understand your apprehension and concern completely!

I told myself a few years ago that I was not going to get involved in this "Irish Blacks"/Maurice Boney/Copyright embroilment any more than I had already become by attempting to convince Mr. Boney of the expediency of accepting the reality of the usage of EPD's in the current Beef Producing World. I had many long and sometimes quite "heated" face-to-face verbal exchanges with Maurice in my attempt to convince him to get "up-to-date" with the majority of the beef breeding communities in regard to the emphasis of the use of EPD's in his breeding herd. This effort was approached as much with emphasis toward merchandising and advertising his cattle as it was in improving his protocols in breeding decisions and selection of seedstock - INCLUDING - carcass and feedlot traits and characteristics - both qualitative and quantitative. The result, literally, was like talking to a wall! :bang:
One might even associate the experience as - :deadhorse:

Therefore, the website that you find currently on the Internet is a result of everything that Eric Grant (Current Angus Association "Director of Public Relations" and PR GUY on CattleToday) and I could convince him to accept.

This is my opinion: If the breeder's of Irish Blacks and Irish Reds cattle would compose themselves, and establish a pragmatic and reasonable EPD program, and intelligently publicize the Irish Blacks & Reds qualities, stressing carcass and feedlot merits, the entire Beef Cattle Breeds communities and the beef-eating consumers would benefit. The Irish Blacks roasts, rib-eye steaks, Filet Mignon's that I have eaten were the most delicious, flavorful, marbled, and juiciest I have ever eaten! :roll:

. . . and I have no dog in this fight!

DOC HARRIS

Gotcha, just saying by the looks of the site it appears to marketed as a terminal breed. Not much cow side info.

I am convinced a pleasurable eating experience can be attained by all breeds. It is the method and cost that causes disagreements.
 
I raise the reds in Mo. and all in all they are top shelf. they were a lot pricey for my taste and wallet, but your foundation is everything when it comes to cow/calf herd. i don't regret buying.
 
BARRON":12lyf3dl said:
I raise the reds in Mo. and all in all they are top shelf. they were a lot pricey for my taste and wallet, but your foundation is everything when it comes to cow/calf herd. i don't regret buying.


Where in Mo?
 

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