Irish Blacks

[DOC HARRIS]

The more I'm hearing, the more I'm thinking to stick with my Welsh Black bulls and to H E double hockey sticks with the Irish Blacks!

BIZIN-and others--

Here, again, is an example of a "Merchandizing/Marketing" conundrum, (or riddle), if you will. Boney's aggressive attitude concerning the 'covenants' he imposes on cattle purchasers is the primary reason for the lack of popularity among Cattle Breeders. One the one hand, the cattle themselves (considering ONLY the cattle themselves) are excellent individuals, generally speaking. They posses optimal phenotype and functional traits, and, insofar as can be determined at the present time, solid performing Genotype traits. BUT - because Boney has a hard-headed, dogmatic, bull-in-the-china-shop, tenacious, obstinate attitude regarding even the slightest acceptance of EPD's, the prediction of how future progeny can be expected to perform is, at best, ethereal. He has, however, relented to DNA prophetical results which, in itself, verifies and inhances the accuracies of EPD's! I have had long and rather strong debates with Maurice regarding his refusal to accede to the incorporation of EPD's into his breeding protocols to accelerate his sales program, but he is adamantly opposed to doing so on the basis of his covenant requirements.

If a producer is seeking good Beef Cattle, and wishes to have control over his breeding decisions and choices, expecting to produce profitable progeny, I would certainly NOT slam the door on researching Irish Blacks as a profitable possibility for beef production. In My Opinion, they are fine beef cattle. Just be sure that you know what you wish to do, and HOW you wish to do it.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

What's not exactly right. Is he or is he not the first and last word on registrations. BTW who ever heard of someone being able to tell a man he has to castrate his calves unless he wants to. That's exactly what I and Frankie was talking about. They charge out the wazoo and then tell you what to do with the cattle after you own them. I have a question for you re. castration what's he gonns do if he finds out you are breeding from a 1/2 blood bull come over and cut him for you?

he does registrations, but he told me that if i bought cows and bulls from him i would be able to register any cows out of them.

he makes it clear on selling bulls that a contract must be signed with the above stipulation. if you agree to it and buy the bull, nobody can complain.

no, he wont cut him, he will sue which he has done.

 

[3waycross]

What's not exactly right. Is he or is he not the first and last word on registrations. BTW who ever heard of someone being able to tell a man he has to castrate his calves unless he wants to. That's exactly what I and Frankie was talking about. They charge out the wazoo and then tell you what to do with the cattle after you own them. I have a question for you re. castration what's he gonns do if he finds out you are breeding from a 1/2 blood bull come over and cut him for you?

he does registrations, but he told me that if i bought cows and bulls from him i would be able to register any cows out of them.

he makes it clear on selling bulls that a contract must be signed with the above stipulation. if you agree to it and buy the bull, nobody can complain.

no, he wont cut him, he will sue which he has done.

Well that's a lot of control for a guy selling cattle with no EPD's that are not homozygous polled, no independent breed assn, not homo blk, and you have to sign a contract that restricts what you can do with the offspring.

Could be why they are not popping up on every corner these days. Don't get me wrong, I said before and I will say again like Doc Harris they are very good lookin cattle, just not worth the pain and the price. At least to me.

 

[BIZIN]

We were planning on putting the Irish Black bulls on our commercial horned hereford cows, keeping the halfblood heifers as replacements and slowly replacing the Angus X Hereford cows we have. I told him we were looking for 4-5 bulls to start and if they worked that we would be looking to buy another 20 more and keep buying over the years as the bulls needed replacing. If they really worked well we would replace all our bulls except our herefords with them. I told him that we have alot of neighbours with big outfits who are also looking into trying another breed and that we could get him a good market up here if they worked. That is what I replied after he asked me to describe our operation, after he wanted me to convince him to sell into Canada. I havent heard from him since, so I am assuming he made up his mind.

 

[KMacGinley]

You might want to ask what it takes to maintain those cattle feedwise?

 

[BRG]

We were planning on putting the Irish Black bulls on our commercial horned hereford cows, keeping the halfblood heifers as replacements and slowly replacing the Angus X Hereford cows we have. I told him we were looking for 4-5 bulls to start and if they worked that we would be looking to buy another 20 more and keep buying over the years as the bulls needed replacing. If they really worked well we would replace all our bulls except our herefords with them. I told him that we have alot of neighbours with big outfits who are also looking into trying another breed and that we could get him a good market up here if they worked. That is what I replied after he asked me to describe our operation, after he wanted me to convince him to sell into Canada. I havent heard from him since, so I am assuming he made up his mind.

Can I ask why you are wanting to switch from Black Angus to something else? just curious is all.

 

[BIZIN]

Too hard doing in the conditions we have our cows in. First cows to get thin and get shipped are the solid blacks and reds and behind them are the bbf cows. Our Welsh Black X Hereford cows do alot better in the conditions our cows are in during the winter and fall. Dont get me wrong, the angus X cows are good cows, but dont fit into our program. Mostly got sick of Angus bulls who dont breed and not being able to find good bulls that werent pumped full of barley. Not trying to pick a fight with the angus folks, but we have bought alot of angus bulls and they would rather fight then breed. We used to pull the angus bulls after 53 days and throw in our hereford bulls in for cleanup for 10 days and the calf crop from those pastures would be almost half hereford calves.

 

[KMacGinley]

What angus bloodlines did you try?

 

[Brandonm22]

WHY would you think the Irish Blacks would be "easier doing" than your Angus bulls? It sounds like you need to find a better Angus bull supplier rather than going out and getting a new breed. Have you tried Emblazon sons??? If the Welsh Blacks are doing so well, why not buy more of them??? IF the founder of the Irish Black breed is hesitant to send his bulls to work in your conditions, I would quietly thank him for his honesty (he certainly isn't going to come out and say something negative about his cattle and have you broadcasting that all over the internet) and move on to my next option.

 

[Brandonm22]

Not trying to pick a fight with the angus folks, but we have bought alot of angus bulls and they would rather fight then breed. We used to pull the angus bulls after 53 days and throw in our hereford bulls in for cleanup for 10 days and the calf crop from those pastures would be almost half hereford calves.

I am not an Angus person and if somebody wants to promote Hereford bulls I certainly am not going to knock them for that; BUT "typically "when most of the calves fall in the back half of a 60 day calving season you have a nutrition problem with your cows. It would also explain declining libido in bulls living in the same conditions. You are right to be looking at the genetics end of this; but you might also want to look at the mineral program, fly program, your pasture rotation, winter supplement program etc.

 

[BIZIN]

Its not the nutrition because we got rid of the angus bulls 4 years ago and havent had that problem since. Our welsh black bulls are good, but the guy we buy them from is going a different direction and is making them smaller, almost miniature. Bought a bull on his internet sale this past winter and the 2yr old bull got here and he is smaller than our yearlings!! In the process of finding another welsh black breeder up here but they arent easy to find. Mr. Boney isnt saying they cant handle it up here, he is saying he wont sell into Canada because of our Copyright laws, but if I could convince him then he said he mite. I dont know what these Irish Blacks are like, but from the website and from talking to DOC HARRIS they sound like one hell of a breed, so I just wanted to see if anyone was using them. Cant remember what bloodlines we were using. Bulls were from Youngdale Angus. Best angus bulls we ever had were from Rick Gaube at Lumsden, SK, but he sold out. Problem is that everyone and their dog is raising Angus bulls and only a small fraction of those breeders have cattle that are any damn good.

 

[Brandonm22]

Cant remember what bloodlines we were using. Bulls were from Youngdale Angus. Best angus bulls we ever had were from Rick Gaube at Lumsden, SK, but he sold out. Problem is that everyone and their dog is raising Angus bulls and only a small fraction of those breeders have cattle that are any be nice good.

I agree with that last sentence. There ARE a lot of Angus lines being propagated now that are more suited for a high level of nutrition farm environment (some of these will kick butt in the feedlot too) than they are for a harsh range environment. A commercial cattlemen is almost FORCED to become as well versed as any pure breeder in the various lines and what they will do....and what they won't do. AND Angus is not the only breed where the variability in the breed is so high that you really need to be an informed buyer.

 

[purecountry]

Our welsh black bulls are good, but the guy we buy them from is going a different direction and is making them smaller, almost miniature.

Let's try being a little more accurate - taking the feed buckets away and wintering sale bulls on a straight hay and mineral ration is hardly "...making them smaller, almost miniature."

The bull may have been smaller than you wanted, so just leave it at that.

 

[BIZIN]

Small isnt the word I would use. Our bulls are wintered on hay and mineral and they still are bigger than that guy. If I could find somebody to take him off my hands I would, but who is going to buy a miniature Welsh Black! The bulls Randy used to raise were good bulls, that 40P, 159P, and 141R are damn good bulls. That 101R that he is selling semen on was also a dink! He is going in the right mindset, but he is going to the extreme!

 

[JHH]

Not trying to pick a fight with the angus folks, but we have bought alot of angus bulls and they would rather fight then breed. We used to pull the angus bulls after 53 days and throw in our hereford bulls in for cleanup for 10 days and the calf crop from those pastures would be almost half hereford calves.

I had the same thing happen.
I havent been raising cows for very long but we tried an angus bull and then used our hereford bull for cleanup and only got two black baldies. The rest were straight herf. But he was a rented bull and wasnt in very good condition when we got him. I will get my own bulls from now on.

 

[3waycross]

Not trying to pick a fight with the angus folks, but we have bought alot of angus bulls and they would rather fight then breed. We used to pull the angus bulls after 53 days and throw in our hereford bulls in for cleanup for 10 days and the calf crop from those pastures would be almost half hereford calves.

I had the same thing happen.
I havent been raising cows for very long but we tried an angus bull and then used our hereford bull for cleanup and only got two black baldies. The rest were straight herf. But he was a rented bull and wasnt in very good condition when we got him. I will get my own bulls from now on.

I also remember my Grandfather telling me you needed 3 bulls for 100 cows 2 angus to fight and breed 25 each and one Hereford to breed the rest while the Angus were fighting. He was only about 1/2 joking.

 

[Brandonm22]

I also remember my Grandfather telling me you needed 3 bulls for 100 cows 2 angus to fight and breed 25 each and one Hereford to breed the rest while the Angus were fighting. He was only about 1/2 joking.

No, the Angus is at the farm a half mile and six now busted fences away battling the neighbor's bull over one heifer while the Hereford is at home trying to get some work done.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I also remember my Grandfather telling me you needed 3 bulls for 100 cows 2 angus to fight and breed 25 each and one Hereford to breed the rest while the Angus were fighting. He was only about 1/2 joking.

No, the Angus is at the farm a half mile and six now busted fences away battling the neighbor's bull over one heifer while the Hereford is at home trying to get some work done.

Puzzle Picture!-

Are all of these Angus bulls that you guys are talking about sons of " N Bar Enulation EXT?" Or - perhaps his Grandsire? Seems that 'aggresiveness' runs in the 'family line, and not necessarily in the "Breed".

Something to think about, eh?

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

I also remember my Grandfather telling me you needed 3 bulls for 100 cows 2 angus to fight and breed 25 each and one Hereford to breed the rest while the Angus were fighting. He was only about 1/2 joking.

No, the Angus is at the farm a half mile and six now busted fences away battling the neighbor's bull over one heifer while the Hereford is at home trying to get some work done.

Puzzle Picture!-

Are all of these Angus bulls that you guys are talking about sons of " N Bar Enulation EXT?" Or - perhaps his Grandsire? Seems that 'aggresiveness' runs in the 'family line, and not necessarily in the "Breed".

Something to think about, eh?

DOC HARRIS

I doubt it Doc my Grandpa told me that in 1959. I don't think either one of those bulls was born then

 

[BIZIN]

Thats what we noticed. Our horned hereford bulls scrap when they meet eachother, for about ten minutes. They figure out pretty quick who the boss is and get to work covering cows. Those angus bulls fight all summer long. Had a bull break his penis while he was mounting and another angus bull came up and cranked him onto his back. The last year we used angus bulls, had 6 bulls following one cow one day, and I counted 4 other cows in heat. Now maybe its just the fact that our hereford bulls have horns, cause when they get put back together for the winter, there is no fighting at all. Or its cause there are no cows around.