incoming stocker calves

[Lane]

I have been purchasing 3 wt. stocker calves for years and have tried several
programs over the years with varied success. I thought I might try "picking
your brains".

My program is that I buy 320-340# calves (heifers, bulls, steers) from 3-5 sale
barns within 100 miles of my place. I recieve calves day of sale in groups of
from 20-50/week depending on availability and time of year. This year I have
been going with a metaphylaxis using Draxxin upon arrival. The calves go into
a holding pen with hay, high-fiber feed, and clean water. On Saturday morning
I re-tag calves, vaccinate (mod. live upper resp., pateurella, blkleg), worm,
pour-on, castrate, and dehorn. Two weeks later I booster (mod. live upper resp.)
and brand.

Calves from each week are held seperate for about 30 days and are run in
5 ac. grass traps with self-feeders.

This year I have experienced about a 20% pull rate and about a 2.5% death loss.
I think my expenses are high at about $25/head (including pulls). In past years
I have tried different methods- temps on arrival, treating only sicks, early vacc.,
later vacc. etc.

Once I get calves past 30 days, it gets a lot easier. My feeding program works
well and I get about 2-2.5#/day gain (start to finish).

ANY IDEAS? What drugs do you use, or what recieving changes might help?

 

[Howdyjabo]

Are you getting a lot of pulls after you re vaccinate?
I wait till 4-6 weeks- seems like messing with them at 2 wks sets them back. Two weeks is a very high stress period.

Probably can't do it- but if you could process them the next day and turn them out they will do better than sitting in a trap. Overnight holding with a feedbunk and hay helps mostly to get some broke to the bunk while they have nothing better to do and are hungry.
Keeping them down to week "put togethers" is a good thing even if you do process day after arrival. I have processed the night they get in, especially in the heat, its better to wait till the next morning.

How is your cross contamination/sanitation protocols? All instruments (except live vaccine needles- which are changed every four animals or less) sanitized between animals/bottles? Water tanks cleaned weekly? And definitely in the holding pen daily? Bunks cleaned of sift,old feed regularly? Is your holding pen dry(if in a barn) and exposed to sunlight?
Are the calves mucking up to get to the feed(real important till they are bunk broke)?

I have tried postponing cutting and working up- never had much luck with it. Seems like its better to get the stress over quick as possible then not rile them up till they have been around 4-6 weeks. Even going in a and pulling sick calves has to be done with no stress or it will set the whole group back. I won't even move them to a new pasture. Get them used to whatever you are going to do in the first few days then don't change your pattern. IE- if you move them on foot don't change to a horse. If you are going to have several people working with them, make sure they all work them the first few days, don't send a stranger in.
Any change to routine no matter how minor will set them back.

Most important thing is to get them on feed- eating animals tend to be healthy animals.
Are you sure you have enough protein? Are you sure you are getting them bunk broke fast enough? Are you looking for calves that are bunk shy and pulling them to put where there are fewer animals already bunk broke? Do you have enough bunk space? Are you bringing them up to the feed bunks a couple times a day to make sure they are all going to it? Are you keeping the feed fresh?
Is your feed palatable enough? Is your starter feed safe(I won't use any starch ingredients)? have you got cotton seed hulls in the starter ration(well worth paying for)?


I like using Multi-min on sale barn cattle- it gets their mineral balance better without having to rely on minerals they may or may not be eating or have the rumen capacity to do anything with it even if they do eat it. Sale barn cattle are notorious (especially from fescue areas) for needing minerals.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Lane

All above is good advice. My program is very similar to yours with the following exceptions:

I buy 150-300# calves. Mostly 2 wts.

Process on day 5 giving a shot of Excede (2/3 price of draxxin), with day 1 being sale day. The reason for waiting 5 days is most respiratory bugs have approx. 10 day incubation. This allows the antibiotic to still be in their system during this critical period. If one shows sick before day 5, I process all immediately. This is very rare.

BTW-I save draxxin as my "big gun" for BRD. Maybe pull 3% for BRD treatment w/draxxin and less than 1% of those require any retreatment. If I don't get one pulled quickly enough, and it's real sick, I'll add 2cc/cwt of baytril to the draxxin and I always use flunixin also.

Actually your costs sound like they are in the ballpark, however using Excede instead of draxxin would save about $3/hd for your size cattle. I started using excede about 3 yrs ago and it has reduced my pulls, death loss and made my life easier.

I stop buying at the end of May as the summer heat is rough on the calves and myself. Start buying in Oct when the weather and prices cool down, although the fall warm day/cool nights is nearly as stressful on the calves as the summer heat.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Lane]

I have to agree with you about maybe holding back on the Draxxin and using
for pulls. I have visited with my vet supply about several drugs and decided
Excede was another choice. I am not sure I am sold on metaphylaxis at all.
3 years ago I used Nuflor and had a small wreck, last year I used Draxxin and
had few pulls, this year more. I am considering just using an internasal upper
respiratory drug, worming and turning out in the traps. Then wait a few
weeks and go ahead and begin regular vaccinations and other work. What
are your thoughts? I am not worried about the money as much as having to
repen the calves so much. I think it would be easier on my help -- and way
cheaper in the long run as divorce could be expensive!(my wife is my help).

We do handle the cattle quietly. I am the only one that pens them along with
one very good dog. I bring the cattle from the shade end of my traps twice
daily and they never get out of a walk. I feed on grass with 12' wheeled feeders
and build a ration that is 14.5% protein, 5% fat, 16% crude fiber. It consists of
corn gluten feed, full-fat protein meal (ground, cooked soybeans), cottonseed
hulls, and grain screening pellets- (80% corn, 10% soybeans, 10% wheat/milo).
Calves are usually all eating by about day 5. I also feed bermuda grass hay free-
choice. I might say also, that I hold about 70 head/5 ac.

How quick do you give blackleg vacc.? I am told that this is pretty hard on
calves. What do you give pulls if you have to go past Draxxin? How many times
do you pull before "throwing in the towel"? Thanks in advance.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Lane

When I process, I do everything, vacs, dehorn, band bulls, worm, ear tag, fly control and excede. I use a killed respiratory vac although the "experts" recommend mlv. Not sure it is relavant, but some think the mlv vaccines are more stressful. I use killed because I don't like mixing the mlv and then throwing away whats not used.

Years ago, dad tried the delayed dehorning, castration, etc and this did not reduce brd sickness in the first month. Seems it is better to get all the stressful activities done at once.

Have almost no repulls after 1 draxxin treatment. For repulls, would probably use baytril or nuflor and possibly a sulfa bolus. My experience with repulls after the first 7 days of initial treatment is you need to hit them hard! It's usually a cure'm or kill'm situation. Would probably throw in the towel after 1 repull as I have had little success beyond that point.

The excede/draxxin combo works wonderful for me. However, have friend who processes with excede but prefers to treat with baytril or nuflor. Seems like he said nuflor when it's hot and baytril when cold. I saw him earlier today and he had a new bottle of nuflor.

I know some who are totally turned off at the cost of a bottle of draxxin. The last time I figured it, 1 dose of draxxin(small dose that lasts 1 week) cost less than 2 doses of baytril or nuflor (5-6 times larger dosage that last 2-3 days per dose) and with draxxin you have half the stress on the calf due to only 1 treatment. That being said, I've never had any luck with a single dose of baytril or nuflor. The few times I thought 1 dose worked, we got a nasty relapse a week or so later. Have had good results with 2 doses of baytril or nuflor when given 2-3 days apart. I usually skip 2 days between doses but recently heard of some who only skip 1 day between doses of baytril.

FWIW-there are many who wish they could have only 2.5% death loss on these light calves, particularly in the hot humid summers like we have. Sounds like you are doing a good job, but I have to respect anybody who wants to do even better.

BTW-check your pm

 

[Stocker Steve]

Weather is a big stress factor here, and every couple years there is a new strain of bugs in the area, so it is really hard to draw conclusions from one or two years worth of results. My death loss on calves runs zero to 3 %. Had more trouble with cows than 3 wts. till I realized I had to vaccinate cows for pasteurella.

I can spot most of the calf retreats the day I receive them. He is the high headed one in the corner who do not want to come up to the bunk and does not like to be taken for a walk.

You have a good program. Here are a couple things to consider if you want to minimize problems and are not real concerned about maximizing the value of gain:
1) Use internasal on day one. You mentioned that.
2) Buy a special heavily medicated receiving ration for the first two weeks. Land O Lakes sells one here.
3) Re sell the high head one.
4) Bring bawlers up several times a day rather than just twice at the start.
5) Don't buy bulls.

 

[Lane]

Thanks guys, I am always trying to do some fine tuning. I am once again changing
over from a cow/calf operation and a few stockers to a full stocker operation.
I have found I can buy the calves for about the same money as keeping a cow
for a year. For once it looks like I picked the right time to sell the cows.

Here in Louisiana I need to buy calves in March, April, and May and have the
calves gone by mid December. The winter mud problems around here really
hurt my gain. One winter I held calves over thru late January and my gain
dropped back to about 1#/day.

Texas PaPaw- I have not figured out how to get the private message yet. Stocker
Steve- Cost of gain is very important (currently runs about $0.37/# with a 7:1
conversion). I feed aureomycin in my minerals and do top-dress for first few
weeks. Howdyjabo- My wife is changing needles and we do not redraw with a
used needle. Thanks again folks, it is nice to visit with folks who are facing
some of the same problems we do. Now if these prices will hold to Dec.!

Lane

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Lane

The pm access is at the top of the page immediately to the right of 'control panel'. It will tell you how many new pm's you have. Just click on the 'new messages' to access them.

Your cost of gain sounds good and that is my highest input cost. Was taught to focus first on the big expenses as they were usually the easiest to reduce. Sounds like you've got a good handle on feed cost and are now focusing on the other costs. Seems like cost control is a journey, not a destination.

Best wishes for your journey. Let us know of any way we can assist.

 

[Kingfisher]

Weather is a big stress factor here, and every couple years there is a new strain of bugs in the area, so it is really hard to draw conclusions from one or two years worth of results. My death loss on calves runs zero to 3 %. Had more trouble with cows than 3 wts. till I realized I had to vaccinate cows for pasteurella.

I can spot most of the calf retreats the day I receive them. He is the high headed one in the corner who do not want to come up to the bunk and does not like to be taken for a walk.

You have a good program. Here are a couple things to consider if you want to minimize problems and are not real concerned about maximizing the value of gain:
1) Use internasal on day one. You mentioned that.
2) Buy a special heavily medicated receiving ration for the first two weeks. Land O Lakes sells one here.
3) Re sell the high head one.
4) Bring bawlers up several times a day rather than just twice at the start.
5) Don't buy bulls.

Hi. What is the purpose of the intranasal ? Thanks in advance.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Two things:
Avoids any possible maternal interference.
Quicker acting than injection.

 

[Howdyjabo]

I had real good luck with the internasal last year-- 0 deathloss and only pulled 12(several of those were foot rot and bag rot) out of 300.I think it helped my ADG the first few weeks too(over using the modified live at processing).
I was afraid the buyers might be turned off, without a good background on long term protection with it(I do back it up with a modified live). But mine topped the market when they sold so they seem to be ok with it.

 

[TexasBred]

Thanks guys, I am always trying to do some fine tuning. I am once again changing
over from a cow/calf operation and a few stockers to a full stocker operation.
I have found I can buy the calves for about the same money as keeping a cow
for a year. For once it looks like I picked the right time to sell the cows.

Here in Louisiana I need to buy calves in March, April, and May and have the
calves gone by mid December. The winter mud problems around here really
hurt my gain. One winter I held calves over thru late January and my gain
dropped back to about 1#/day.

Texas PaPaw- I have not figured out how to get the private message yet. Stocker
Steve- Cost of gain is very important (currently runs about $0.37/# with a 7:1
conversion). I feed aureomycin in my minerals and do top-dress for first few
weeks. Howdyjabo- My wife is changing needles and we do not redraw with a
used needle. Thanks again folks, it is nice to visit with folks who are facing
some of the same problems we do. Now if these prices will hold to Dec.!

Lane

Lane I'm curious how you can feed for $.37 for each pound of gain and it takes 7 lbs. of feed to obtain that pound of gain. Even trying to make my own we have no ingredients available for less than $250 a ton buying bulk truckloads and protein is closer to $350.

 

[Lane]

Texas Bred, first off look at the date of my original post. Second, remember
that I am located near the Mississippi River (probably the largest grain
corridor in the world) and I work with a variety of by-products. At least half
of my ration is an energy product made from grain screenings purchased from
the export elevators. I also use DDG, and CSH. Look at where you live. Part of
the difference is truck freight!

My current cost of gain is about $ .58/# of gain. My current calf cost is $1.18
for calves weighing 355.39#. For about the last 10 years conversion on my
calves has been about 6.8:1 (on calves from 350# to 700#) on late winter/spring
purchased calves. Last week I sold a mixed pot load of steers & heifers. The steers
averaged $1.40/# and heifers averaged $1.31/#. You can do the math.

This has been a crazy year. I have sold calves for more money than ever
before. Light calves have been reasonable, but feed costs have gone up on
every group of calves I feed. I try to "fine-tune" constantly, and am not
afraid to change as needed.

Lane

 

[TexasBred]

I don't question the price your calves bring. The market has been great for that. I know were Palmetta is and am familar with PMG. Unless you work for them I'm sure you'll pay the same as I would for ingredients with the exception of freight. Still can't see you making feed for $160 a ton or thereabouts. Am familar with Aspirated Grain Dust pellets as well as PMG's so called "full fat" product. Had it analyze once and it had everything from soybean products to crawfish shells and oyster shells in it not to mention the dozens of different kinds of weed seeds. Nobody I know of uses elevator dust in feed besides Purina.

 

[Lane]

You know Texas Bred I don't really care what you can see. You have had some
kind of problem with me from the "get go". If some one asks me a question I
answer it. If you don't like my answer it is your problem. My current ration
costs me $161.50, and I do feed the Full-fat product. It is off-grade soybeans
and soybean screenings that have been ground and cooked. Works pretty well
as one of my protein sources. The crawfish shells thing is pure BS!
Of course there are plenty of crawfish in this part of Louisiana. I eat them so
maybe they might be good for cattle also. By the way, how many calves are you feeding?

Lane

 

[TexasBred]

You know Texas Bred I don't really care what you can see. You have had some
kind of problem with me from the "get go". If some one asks me a question I
answer it. If you don't like my answer it is your problem. My current ration
costs me $161.50, and I do feed the Full-fat product. It is off-grade soybeans
and soybean screenings that have been ground and cooked. Works pretty well
as one of my protein sources. The crawfish shells thing is pure BS!
Of course there are plenty of crawfish in this part of Louisiana. I eat them so
maybe they might be good for cattle also. By the way, how many calves are you feeding?

Lane

No sir the crawfish shells were in there as well as the oyster shell. A real conglumeration of things. An old dairyman was feeding in over in East Texas and PMG would never tell him what it was so I sent it to the Cargill Lab in Minneapolis for a microscopic examination. Didn't say I didn't like your answer....just questioned the accuracy of your weighing and measuring. :lol2:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

You know Texas Bred I don't really care what you can see. You have had some
kind of problem with me from the "get go". If some one asks me a question I
answer it. If you don't like my answer it is your problem. My current ration
costs me $161.50, and I do feed the Full-fat product. It is off-grade soybeans
and soybean screenings that have been ground and cooked. Works pretty well
as one of my protein sources. The crawfish shells thing is pure BS!
Of course there are plenty of crawfish in this part of Louisiana. I eat them so
maybe they might be good for cattle also. By the way, how many calves are you feeding?

Lane

Why so defensive Lane? TB is just asking logical questions and sharing knowledge with you/us. He knows what he's talking about when it comes to feed and feed mixes.

Chill out.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Ignore him Lane-- I am feeding for alot less than you are. With great weight gains.
But that doesn't count the money I spent for infrastructure to store/ make use of cheaper local by products
Even with those costs added in I'm still pretty low- otherwise I would be out of business.

If you are going to feed calves profitably year in and year out you either need good grazing(which I don't have) or you need to be creative and educated on how to make use of that creativity.

PS-- I would LOVE to get ahold of some crawfish waste to feed-I hear its good if you have enough head to feed it up fast(doesn't store well). And your neighbors might not like you much if you did try and store it And a little oyster shell would save me from having to add limestone

 

[Lane]

When someone pokes me I jump, when someone continues to poke me I respond.
I stated facts, and he seems to question my honesty so I answered his questions.
If he had a dog in this hunt I might have responded differently, but he wasn't
offering advise. If he or anyone else shows me a better way I will try it, but that
wasn't the case.

Lane

 

[cross_7]

i would like to know more about this "internasal vaccine
what does it cover, who makes it or give me a name and i'll do my own research.