Inbreeding

[RD-Sam]

Hi, I am looking at getting a few cattle for my personal beef and maybe sell a calf here and there. I want to do this right, so I am going to ask a bunch of questions. :lol: I do know how to breed dogs, and I still breed some for show, so they are quality dogs and I have produced champions.

I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees on registered black angus, and was looking to buy a heifer with a calf, which is also a heifer. Then looking at a bull to use with the adult heifer. So I am wondering if there are problems related to inbreeding cattle, and if so, how tight can you line breed before you start having problems? Normal problems associated with line breeding and inbreeding would be helpful to know also. :dunce:

 

[novatech]

As far as linebreeding is concerned you do not want to go over 50%. 1/2 brother to half sister. I know a man that has done the father daughter routine but has had a few come out rather freaky. Do a search on here. There has been a lot of good info posted.
If you have done dogs it is basicly the same process.

 

[dun]

The closest inbreeding experiment that I have seen was using one bull on 3 generations. I always have a hard time explaining this part. Bull A was bred to cow B, heifer calf AB was bred back to A, heifer calf AAB was bred back to A producing heifer calf AAAB. not sure if that's clear or not. Bull was known to down size frames. Heifer AAAB was much smaller then her dam or grand dam, etc. When she calved bred to a different bull the calf was still born. She went to the packers with out being rebred. If the still born was a reuslt of such intense inbreeding or just a chance occurence I have no idea. Calf appeard completely normal exteranlly, just dead at birth. The rest of her ancestors are still in the herd and still producing, just never bred back to bull A again. One thing that I found intersting is that bull A is noted for have wild/high headed offspring. All of the daughters from this experiment are calm easy going cows, even the small heifer was really calm and laid back.

 

[dun]

Hi, I am looking at getting a few cattle for my personal beef and maybe sell a calf here and there. I want to do this right, so I am going to ask a bunch of questions. :lol: I do know how to breed dogs, and I still breed some for show, so they are quality dogs and I have produced champions.

I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees on registered black angus, and was looking to buy a heifer with a calf, which is also a heifer. Then looking at a bull to use with the adult heifer. So I am wondering if there are problems related to inbreeding cattle, and if so, how tight can you line breed before you start having problems? Normal problems associated with line breeding and inbreeding would be helpful to know also. :dunce:

The significant difference between breeding cattle and dogs is the generation lag and litter size. If you get a screwed up gene pairing with a pup there may be others in the litter that don;t have the combination and their offspring may be fine, but you know it relatively soon. After waiting 9 months for a single calf, if it has problems you have wasted one generation with nothing to select from. Even if the animal is ok you won;t know about it's genetic abilitys for 2 years. That's a lot of time to lose in breeding experiments. You may end up with the next best thing or possibly a disaster, but most likely just an average calf with some genes concentrated.

 

[novatech]

As far as linebreeding is concerned you do not want to go over 50%. 1/2 brother to half sister. I know a man that has done the father daughter routine but has had a few come out rather freaky. Do a search on here. There has been a lot of good info posted.
If you have done dogs it is basicly the same process.

What was the freaky part?

My reason for asking we have a cow that is the result of a son breeding its own dam. We have a heifer and bull calf from her the bull calf is being used now and we have two calving seasons of calves from him. The calves are outstanding. We bred him back to his dam as a experiment. Even considering breeding him to a full sister to see what the results might be. Any opinions or instances?

Calves colors were splotchy, red, tan, black and grey. They should have been solid. One calf had teeth that stuck out at the bottom. Like buck teeth but from the bottom. He got rid of them pretty quick. I think they were renamed veal. Over all the calves came out pretty good. But these isolated occurences would prevent me from breeding that close.

 

[BAGTIC]

The AI guy may have decided that others were better at it than he was, or faster and more efficient, or it was not as interesting as he first thought it might have been, or he may simply have decided that his time was worth more when devoted to some other necessary task than when AI'ing cows which a lot of technicians could do as well.

As for inbreeding its value lies in the ability to uncover recessive undesirable genes. If one gets bad offspring one loses some value on them but one also learns that the undesirable genes are present and the sire and dam themselves can be removed from the breeding herd creating future longterm benefits. Without this knowledge one will continue spreading unwanted genetics though the herd. As with any contagion the carriers need to be identified and then isolated. Modern genetics makes it possible to identify some genetic traits but not all in the laboratory. For many it is still necessary to resort to empirical field research.

We should also remember that we are breeding animals, not humans and the traditional rules of human incest morality are not involved. It is a matter of science. Both science and moral tradition have their place but they are not universally interchangeable.

 

[Bluestem]

As far as linebreeding is concerned you do not want to go over 50%. 1/2 brother to half sister. I know a man that has done the father daughter routine but has had a few come out rather freaky. Do a search on here. There has been a lot of good info posted.
If you have done dogs it is basically the same process.

What was the freaky part?

My reason for asking we have a cow that is the result of a son breeding its own dam. We have a heifer and bull calf from her the bull calf is being used now and we have two calving seasons of calves from him. The calves are outstanding. We bred him back to his dam as a experiment. Even considering breeding him to a full sister to see what the results might be. Any opinions or instances?

Calves colors were splotchy, red, tan, black and grey. They should have been solid. One calf had teeth that stuck out at the bottom. Like buck teeth but from the bottom. He got rid of them pretty quick. I think they were renamed veal. Over all the calves came out pretty good. But these isolated occurrences would prevent me from breeding that close.

I would not breed that close either. I try to breed to Dun's example. With that said, sounds like close breeding was doing what it was suppose to do, bring out the genetics you want to cull out. If he stayed with it, he'd have some good genetics.

 

[RD-Sam]

Hi, I am looking at getting a few cattle for my personal beef and maybe sell a calf here and there. I want to do this right, so I am going to ask a bunch of questions. :lol: I do know how to breed dogs, and I still breed some for show, so they are quality dogs and I have produced champions.

I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees on registered black angus, and was looking to buy a heifer with a calf, which is also a heifer. Then looking at a bull to use with the adult heifer. So I am wondering if there are problems related to inbreeding cattle, and if so, how tight can you line breed before you start having problems? Normal problems associated with line breeding and inbreeding would be helpful to know also. :dunce:

Here's an article that might help to understand the issues involved in linebreeding and inbreeding:
http://www.angusaustralia.com.au/Breedi ... eaflet.pdf

I have a question for you: Why would you buy a bull just for 2 cows?

I wasn't looking at buying the bull, but it looked like a good sire for the heifer, the common line was three generations back. I always try not to ever go over 25% inbreeding in the dogs, most of the time it is kept in the 8-15% range.

Thanks for all the input so far.

 

[EAT BEEF]

The AI guy may have decided that others were better at it than he was, or faster and more efficient, or it was not as interesting as he first thought it might have been, or he may simply have decided that his time was worth more when devoted to some other necessary task than when AI'ing cows which a lot of technicians could do as well.

As for inbreeding its value lies in the ability to uncover recessive undesirable genes. If one gets bad offspring one loses some value on them but one also learns that the undesirable genes are present and the sire and dam themselves can be removed from the breeding herd creating future longterm benefits. Without this knowledge one will continue spreading unwanted genetics though the herd. As with any contagion the carriers need to be identified and then isolated. Modern genetics makes it possible to identify some genetic traits but not all in the laboratory. For many it is still necessary to resort to empirical field research.

We should also remember that we are breeding animals, not humans and the traditional rules of human incest morality are not involved. It is a matter of science. Both science and moral tradition have their place but they are not universally interchangeable.

Good post imo.

Also Hybrid vigor from mating two linebreed individuals that are unrelated may be interesting for a terminal cross.

 

[m&kCattle]

When it comes to raising rodeo cattle, there is a lot of double bred bulls. As the saying go's if it works it is line breeding if it doesn't inbreeding.

 

[RanchManager]

double-bred, triple-bred, etc = inbred

Keep inbreeding cattle to any extent and we will have as good a reputation as the AKA. If you want to sell me a good working cow dog, don't mention to me that it is papered with the AKA. I count that as a hugh negative. Same thing with good working horses. Take a look sometime at how many grade champion race horses, cutting horses, and barrel horses were found in the canner pen. I fully understand why people do it and the results (sometimes positive), however it always results in long term negative results. Many european registries think we Americans are crazy for our breeding practices and I tend to agree with them.

When you think of hip dysplasia in dogs, think of corkscrew foot in Angus, etc, etc. It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

 

[grannysoo]

Use the search function and you'll get opinions out the wazoo. As for us, we don't do it.

To each his own.....

 

[m&kCattle]

Use the search function and you'll get opinions out the wazoo. As for us, we don't do it.

To each his own.....

I was just curious as to some new opinions that was why I brought it back to the top.

double-bred, triple-bred, etc = inbred

If you want to sell me a good working cow dog, don't mention to me that it is papered with the AKA. I count that as a hugh negative.

....... It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

Guess I will never sell you one of our dogs, they are not registered with the AKA, but they are some great linebred Black Mouth Curs! They work a bull better than anything I've seen :banana: .......who said anything about a little line breeding? a lot of our females are very rarely outcrossed and we never had one with 2 heads yet. With anything you have to cull hard and keep the best.

double-bred, triple-bred, etc = inbred

I guess you are calling my cows inbred then? Thats ok because I know what they sell for........seems a lot of people don't mind if they are inbred.

 

[Nesikep]

We breed a heifer to her sire regularly, we don't keep the offspring though

We keep a bull for 6-8 years, and we only have one, we would have to get cheap bulls to be able to swap them ever 2 or 3 years..

I really have to review my Biology 12 class the genetics section in it, especially recessive genes, etc

 

[novatech]

Linebreeding/inbreeding to me is making a line of cattle better by getting rid of the bad. Sure there can be some very poor results. The poor results are what is looked for so it can be eliminated by culling. Given enough cattle, enough time, and enough discapline you end up with cattle that are more or less void of the bad genes. This is especially important in the less heritable traits, such as fertility.

 

[grubbie]

When you think of hip dysplasia in dogs, think of corkscrew foot in Angus, etc, etc. It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

My feeling exactly. (Curly Calf Syndrome, anyone???) So,...if you are raising it for your own beef, why is this even a question?? Gonna raise some high-dollar registered breeding stock to kill? Seriously, if you are just raising beef and maybe one or two to sell on the side, it seems like your getting a little carried away, considering any decent crossbred calf will do the trick. Just have your cow AI'd to a quality bull and get quality calves. Good luck either way.

 

[m&kCattle]

When you think of hip dysplasia in dogs, think of corkscrew foot in Angus, etc, etc. It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

My feeling exactly. (Curly Calf Syndrome, anyone???) So,...if you are raising it for your own beef, why is this even a question?? Gonna raise some high-dollar registered breeding stock to kill? Seriously, if you are just raising beef and maybe one or two to sell on the side, it seems like your getting a little carried away, considering any decent crossbred calf will do the trick. Just have your cow AI'd to a quality bull and get quality calves. Good luck either way.

That would be the reason for culling. All herds have negative traits some just don't show up as often, again the reason for culling. I never said I raised them for beef or made any mention of selling just one or two on the side. I breed for certain selective traits that are desirable to the industry I'm involved in.....and the real kicker, I do AI occasionally and we also flush some of our females. We just tend to stick to the same lines unless we feel an outcross is necessary.

 

[novatech]

When you think of hip dysplasia in dogs, think of corkscrew foot in Angus, etc, etc. It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

My feeling exactly. (Curly Calf Syndrome, anyone???) So,...if you are raising it for your own beef, why is this even a question?? Gonna raise some high-dollar registered breeding stock to kill? Seriously, if you are just raising beef and maybe one or two to sell on the side, it seems like your getting a little carried away, considering any decent crossbred calf will do the trick. Just have your cow AI'd to a quality bull and get quality calves. Good luck either way.

There is a lot of difference between pet owners and cattle breeders. Cattle with poor genetics go for hamburger. Pet owners should neuter those with poor genetics but do not.
In nature line breeding is one of the key elements in the survival of a species. Deer for instance are rarely out crossed. The bad genetics simply will not survive.

 

[RD-Sam]

When you think of hip dysplasia in dogs, think of corkscrew foot in Angus, etc, etc. It all starts with a few people thinking that a little inbreeding will be OK.

My feeling exactly. (Curly Calf Syndrome, anyone???) So,...if you are raising it for your own beef, why is this even a question?? Gonna raise some high-dollar registered breeding stock to kill? Seriously, if you are just raising beef and maybe one or two to sell on the side, it seems like your getting a little carried away, considering any decent crossbred calf will do the trick. Just have your cow AI'd to a quality bull and get quality calves. Good luck either way.

I didn't know this got brought back to the top. :mrgreen: Yes, I want some high dollar beef to kill and eat! :lol2: I also figure anything worth doing is worth doing right. I'm trying to build a herd and want it to be a quality herd, I'd rather not have to worry if a cow or bull I sell is any good or not, so I want to breed the best I can. And I am doing AI's with everything for now.

 

[RanchManager]

I didn't mean to upset anyone. This is a sore subject with me. However, yes linebreeding is inbreeding. If you have line-bred cattle, then you just have to accept the fact that you have in-bred livestock, dogs, whatever (hopefully not kids). You might experience some short-term gains as some of you suggest, however long-term line breeding will ALWAYS result in negative gene concentrations, statistically.

If you are "line breeding" you are "in breeding". If you are going to sell the animals for beef. It does'nt matter if you get a little inbreeding. Most producers who use the battery of bulls method wind up with some inbreeding. The problem with line/in breeding is that while trying to enhance some positive traits you will always, yes always, be advancing some inferior traits that will, yes will, make it to the surface sooner or later.

I'm sure inbred deer die off as one of you suggested when negative gene concentrations occur, but that is not a logical comparison with dometic animals. Do you want your cows to die off? We humans compensate for the deficiencies in our stock when something goes amiss and too often it's too profitable to cull a super producing animal because of one small defect. So we propagate it for it's benefits and down the road the negative aspects bite us in the hiney. Show horses today have feet that are too small for their weight. These show horse genes make it into work horse stock. Many show Arabs have backs that are too long to support riders (they are supposed to have one less vertebrae and short backs), many dog lines have hip dysplasia, hel), bull dogs can't even deliver naturally anymore. All births are cesarian. Domestic turkeys can't breed. Every Butterball is A.I.d because we breed them for breasts that are so big they cannot mount for breeding. Hemophilia used to run rampant in the royalty of Europe. It was a hugh problem for them, because they liked their cousins and were trying to keep pure, royal blood in the family. My examples are of the extreme, but my point is that if you are getting in/line breeding in your stock I would eat them if I was you and if you don't your heifers are going to be purchased by someone who will breed them and eventually or handiwork is going to affect us all. I simply won't accept inbreeding in my livestock if I can help it. My calves performance proves my point.

It happens all the time and most registered producers do line-breed to some degree. They are trying to enhance growth, milk, IMF, Ribeye area, etc. Their goal is not necesarily lbs of calf in the fall. Line breeding IS the reason we have common genetic maladies showing up in dogs, horses, cattle, etc. It IS the reason we experience herterosis today. Heterosis is seen when breeding composites of any species. Composites are statistically healthier and stronger that pure breed stock. Most calf producers, other than purebred producers, choose to cross two or more different lines i.e. Angus and Hereford for this reason. It always benefits the producer to do so becasue he/she statistically produces more lbs of beef with fewer health problems. It happens because the pure breeds are too genetically similar and crossing the breeds brings a positive genetic diversity 99.9% of the time.

If I was wrong, heterosis wouldn't even be a word.