In Force

[inyati13]

Anyone have any knowledge or experience to share on In Force, 2593861?

 

[Lucky_P]

Already told you what I know & like - and what I don't.
Topside - Hook's Shear Force 38K: calving ease, EXT-like udders, docility, marbling, ribeye, great API & TI.
Bottomside...not so much... rumors may be just rumors, but I've stayed away from MIF. LOT of folks used him, though.

In Force oughta sire calves that just fall out of 'em, though. But, the bull's just half the genetics; the walking Angus bull here has sired calves ranging from probably 50 # to 105# in the same calf crop - but different cows, contributing different genetic combination.

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

Don't know really anything about the bull, but I personally don't like the looks of him in what pics I have seen. He isn't stylish enough for me. Have heard of people using him but I think it's because of his epd's more than anything else.

 

[inyati13]

Already told you what I know & like - and what I don't.
Topside - Hook's Shear Force 38K: calving ease, EXT-like udders, docility, marbling, ribeye, great API & TI.
Bottomside...not so much... rumors may be just rumors, but I've stayed away from MIF. LOT of folks used him, though.

In Force oughta sire calves that just fall out of 'em, though. But, the bull's just half the genetics; the walking Angus bull here has sired calves ranging from probably 50 # to 105# in the same calf crop - but different cows, contributing different genetic combination.

Lucky, the In Force calf that resulted in the loss of Miley is what I am concerned about. I have more of his semen and more important, I have Star bred AI with one of his straws. She is not a big cow. Her calf born in March was maybe 60 pounds and she had absolutely no problem. But she could never have a calf as big as the one Miley produced from In Force.

 

[inyati13]

Don't know really anything about the bull, but I personally don't like the looks of him in what pics I have seen. He isn't stylish enough for me. Have heard of people using him but I think it's because of his epd's more than anything else.

Mike,
Selecting bulls is a journey in a dark land for me. I may be wrong to do so, but I look at the lineage more than the phenotype. I figure genetically, you could have a great looking bull but if the lineage is full of crap, it is fool's gold.

Then I look at the Pictures and EPDs. I also get all my semen from Select Sires. Kenley Conner offers suggestions. For example, he recently told me Rasin Cane is very popular among his customers and puts on a lot of muscle and pounds.

My concern with In Force is that his calf resulted in a very difficult delivery for Miley and she died as a result of a Uterine artery rupture. I now think that her rectal prolapse was due to the pressure of running out of capacity. Toward the last 5 days, she was building a vaginal prolapse. All due in my estimation to the pressure and lack of room for a very large calf.

 

[Lucky_P]

Ron
While the bull still has low accuracy on his epds, everything for several generations, top and bottom, is stacked for calving ease.
With the pre-partum issues you identified several weeks back and the relative 'over-conditioning' we're accustomed to seeing in your cattle, the 'blame', if any is there to be assigned, probably falls on the heifer. Certainly looked big enough that she should have been able to deliver a 112Y calf easily - but genes don't always align the way we expect them to.
But, an overconditioned heifer, with lots of intrapelvic fat may have difficulty delivering a calf that in a lesser BCS, she'd have just lain down and spit out uneventfully.

I understand your concern, but knowing what's behind this bull, I'd be sleeping peacefully while awaiting the next calf.

 

[inyati13]

Ron
While the bull still has low accuracy on his epds, everything for several generations, top and bottom, is stacked for calving ease.
With the pre-partum issues you identified several weeks back and the relative 'over-conditioning' we're accustomed to seeing in your cattle, the 'blame', if any is there to be assigned, probably falls on the heifer. Certainly looked big enough that she should have been able to deliver a 112Y calf easily - but genes don't always align the way we expect them to.
But, an overconditioned heifer, with lots of intrapelvic fat may have difficulty delivering a calf that in a lesser BCS, she'd have just lain down and spit out uneventfully.

I understand your concern, but knowing what's behind this bull, I'd be sleeping peacefully while awaiting the next calf.

Thanks. My next In Force sired calf does not arrive until March/April. I have a cow (will be her fourth calf) due Sept 5 who is AI'd to War Party 2417. I used War Party because I thought this cow could deliver a bigger calf. Now, I am a little worried. She is a HP/RP cow. She is big but that can translate to a big calf. Her picture is below and she does carry a lot of condition. I am thinking in her last 14 days of gestation which would begin about now, I will put her up so she does not get access to so much pasture. It has been stated here on CT that those last 14 days are when the calf gains the most.

 

[Chuckie]

Beautiful cows and a super pasture!!!!! So much protein!! Your cows are in good shape because they have the best.

 

[Lucky_P]

You just need more cows, Ron.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

You just need more cows, Ron.

I keep telling him that!!! He does not seem to listen to me though ;-)

On a serious note, Ron, I agree with Lucky, Miley is more to blame than the bull, in my humble opinion...

 

[redcowsrule33]

I have to wonder about the cow side of the situation, too, Inyati. I have a cow family that will have 100+ # calves bred to a Jersey. BUT they are built for it. What was Miss Miley's pedigree?

 

[Lucky_P]

You can't predict everything.
We've been using Triple C Bettis as a CE(CED 18.5/BW 1.1) sire on heifers for a year or two now - calves have all been pretty small. But, I had a big, fat SHxAN heifer this week try to deliver one with a leg back. By the time I got that deal straightened out, she and the calf's head were so swollen that I didn't think I could get him out without killing one or both of 'em. Had to call in a veterinary colleague to do a C-section(I no longer have all the stuff I need to do one); got the calf out alive - big calf, but not HUGE, and no, I didn't weigh him. Calf and dam are doing well now.
Next day, another heifer bred the same way was in labor when I got home from work. Watched her for an hour and a half, didn't feel like she was making any headway, so I drove her to the barnlot and pulled it - everything was presented normally - big head, but not swollen, and I did pull it by hand - maybe if I'd left her alone, she'd have gotten him out... but I was gunshy.
Kinda sweating the last heifer in this group bred to Bettis, but at 7/8 Angus, she's not got much hybrid vigor or potential for high BW behind her, so I may be worrying needlessly.

 

[inyati13]

You can't predict everything.
We've been using Triple C Bettis as a CE(CED 18.5/BW 1.1) sire on heifers for a year or two now - calves have all been pretty small. But, I had a big, fat SHxAN heifer this week try to deliver one with a leg back. By the time I got that deal straightened out, she and the calf's head were so swollen that I didn't think I could get him out without killing one or both of 'em. Had to call in a veterinary colleague to do a C-section(I no longer have all the stuff I need to do one); got the calf out alive - big calf, but not HUGE, and no, I didn't weigh him. Calf and dam are doing well now.
Next day, another heifer bred the same way was in labor when I got home from work. Watched her for an hour and a half, didn't feel like she was making any headway, so I drove her to the barnlot and pulled it - everything was presented normally - big head, but not swollen, and I did pull it by hand - maybe if I'd left her alone, she'd have gotten him out... but I was gunshy.
Kinda sweating the last heifer in this group bred to Bettis, but at 7/8 Angus, she's not got much hybrid vigor or potential for high BW behind her, so I may be worrying needlessly.

Lucky, the cow I posted above had a nice calf, 105 pounds without any trouble. You mention the potential for high BW and hybrid vigor. In Force is a 5/8 Sim and 3/8 Angus, could that be a cause of the high birth weight? Even though he has a CE of 18.7 and BM of -3.2.

 

[inyati13]

I have to wonder about the cow side of the situation, too, Inyati. I have a cow family that will have 100+ # calves bred to a Jersey. BUT they are built for it. What was Miss Miley's pedigree?

Her sire is Milestone. Her dam is a PB angus out of the Rocking P herd. I sent you her Reg #. Thanks.

 

[highgrit]

Inyati, a professor from UGA came and spoke at our young farmers meeting in June. He said to expect a 10 to 15 percent increase in birth weight by using a hybrid. He also recommend using a low birth weight Angus bull on heifers. And that seemed a little wishy-washy to me. But the hybrid thing he was pretty much sure about. I'm not letting our Hereford bull breed any heifers.

 

[Lucky_P]

Ron,
Need to also look at accuracies. At 0.31(112Y's acc. on CED epd), it's pretty low.
Granted, looking at what's behind him, it oughta be pretty believable - but until he gets some progeny reported, it's a guesstimate.

Bettis, the bull I've been using on heifers, has 0.91 acc on his 18.5 CED epd - pretty reliable, at least on paper. But, his full sib, Singletary (whom I have used - but not on heifers) has CED of 3.9 with .85 acc - still pretty reliable). That's a pretty wide spread for two full-sibs.
Why? - I'd say if you went solely on averages of parental performance, they'd be similar - but just like my two sons are very different from one another, so may the performance of progeny of two similarly-bred bulls differ.

EPDs are a 'population-based' estimate - with reported data from the bull/cow, their own offspring, closely-related individuals, and the population as a whole, influencing changes in the numbers. Too much math for me to wrap my feeble mind around.
Additionally, as the 'E' stands for 'expected'...you don't always get what you expect.

 

[inyati13]

Ron,
Need to also look at accuracies. At 0.31(112Y's acc. on CED epd), it's pretty low.
Granted, looking at what's behind him, it oughta be pretty believable - but until he gets some progeny reported, it's a guesstimate.

Bettis, the bull I've been using on heifers, has 0.91 acc on his 18.5 CED epd - pretty reliable, at least on paper. But, his full sib, Singletary (whom I have used - but not on heifers) has CED of 3.9 with .85 acc - still pretty reliable). That's a pretty wide spread for two full-sibs.
Why? - I'd say if you went solely on averages of parental performance, they'd be similar - but just like my two sons are very different from one another, so may the performance of progeny of two similarly-bred bulls differ.

EPDs are a 'population-based' estimate - with reported data from the bull/cow, their own offspring, closely-related individuals, and the population as a whole, influencing changes in the numbers. Too much math for me to wrap my feeble mind around.
Additionally, as the 'E' stands for 'expected'...you don't always get what you expect.

Thanks, Lucky. Ron

You know what concerns me about EPDs? Human nature! Garbage in. Garbage out. I wonder how much bad data (or no data) goes in that contaminates the good data?

 

[highgrit]

Plenty. There's folks on this board that have done it, and will continue to do it. When you sell bulls the numbers mean a lot. So either you leave out the big calves or fudge the numbers.

 

[Ohrmundt Simmentals]

That's one thing I like about the ASA THE( Total Herd Enrollment). Where you can report all your calves for the cow performance. You don't have to register all the calves just report them. Depends on what option of THE you use.
I'm usually not crazy about using a new bull on a heifer unless she is well developed and both have the pedigree to back it up. I like using the new bulls on 2 calf cows to get an idea of what they'll do.

 

[Lucky_P]

I'm with you OS.
An 8 yr old bull with .91 accuracy...I'm more comfortable with - but things can still defy what you expect to get.

When we switched over from what I was comfortable with(AN & SM), and started using Shorthorn sires on some of our cows...different epd base, smaller population of animals, fewer progeny to lend accuracies - and lots of tales of folks fudging data submitted, I used only reputed calving ease bulls, and stayed away from using 'em on heifers until I had a few years' use under my belt. Now the Shorties have merged their epd database with SM, AR, GV - and the numbers have changed, just as I'd started getting comfortable and somewhat trusting of the old SH epds. Looking at the SH bulls we've used, I'm not sure their 'new' epds fit with the results I've experienced.

Sometimes you just have to trust folks - but, as RR said, "Trust, but verify!"
If the rumors are out there that a particular breeder has fudged numbers...you have to consider the possibility that it happened - even if it really didn't.