Idiopathethic Epilepsy in Polled Herefords and other breeds?

[Aaron]

So I think it may have been George that mentioned that IE was an autosomal recessive trait in another thread. I had assumed, up to that point, it was autosomal dominent. This started to get me thinking in regards to some of the IE-affected calves that we have had in the past two years (using a crossbred-bull in the commercial herd - he's gone, but still dealing with his last set of calves) We had two definite EI calves this past year. Maybe 3. One expressed IE so bad he became a chronic bloater and had to be shot. Last year we had one for sure, maybe 2. All off different cows. Some of the cows trace back to the same sire, some to the same cow families.

What gets to me, is that all of the maternal-side of the pedigree required to be carriers are all Polled Hereford, with some notable A.I. Polled sires doting their pedigrees. No horned genetics in the mature cowherd.

Just based on a DNA profile, can the AHA go back and check on deceased bulls for IE, DL or HY? Or does that require separate genetic testing?

Also, anyone have any info on what other breeds have IE in their herd books? Far back in some of those commercial cow families, there is a dabble of Holstein in a couple and Shorthorn in another. :cowboy:

The crossbred bull was 1/2 Gelbvieh (sire), so I know they have it in their herd book.

 

[alexfarms]

It sounds to me like you have very little idea of what you have or what is causing the problem. If it is a genetic problem, the problem could have been passed forward through several generations of commercial cattle and the recent AI sires may not have anything to do with it at all. There are also forms of epilepsy that may not be genetic at all. You need to do some genetic testing of the cattle. You say the crossbred bull is half Gelbveih, so Gelbvieh have it...what is the other half of his pedigree and how do you know it didn't come from there? Any Hereford animal you can provide a dna sample on (hair, semen, blood) can be tested. Which Polled Hereford bull is it that you think is the carrier, or maybe you have decided that all Polled Herefords must carry it? Go to the AHA website and see if the bull has been tested. Do a search and see if any of his descendents have been confirmed as carriers. The test is available, use it.
Here is a link which may be helpfull.
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/consultant/c ... kw=&signs=

 

[JHH]

Aaron I thought that IE came from the horned side (9012Y) I think he was a carrier. I wasn't aware on the polled side.

As for the chronic bloater that could have been just as much a genetic defect on its own. I thought IE was when they would just seiz and then come back out of it. I know other breeds have it but thought the polled side was ok unless it was a horned-polled mating with a carrier.

If I understand it ( and I probably dont) you have to have two carriers dont you ( cow and bull)?

I hope someone will tell me if I am wrong I would also like to know.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

My goodness, Aaron. Time to take a break from the boards. You keep showing your ignorance of breeding issues. Do you really sell registered cattle to people?

 

[Aaron]

My goodness, Aaron. Time to take a break from the boards. You keep showing your ignorance of breeding issues. Do you really sell registered cattle to people?

Ok, so explain the situation then WLM. IE is autosomal recessive, is it not?

 

[Aaron]

Aaron I thought that IE came from the horned side (9012Y) I think he was a carrier. I wasn't aware on the polled side.

As for the chronic bloater that could have been just as much a genetic defect on its own. I thought IE was when they would just seiz and then come back out of it. I know other breeds have it but thought the polled side was ok unless it was a horned-polled mating with a carrier.

If I understand it ( and I probably dont) you have to have two carriers dont you ( cow and bull)?

I hope someone will tell me if I am wrong I would also like to know.

Yes, you need both parents to have one carrier allele, to combine and form a homozygous calf at risk for IE symptoms.

The one problem calf I have left has this pedigree:


Sire: Jag (Crossbred bull - 1/2 Gelbvieh, 3/8 Red Angus, 1/8 Simmental, 1/8 Hereford) (IEC - showed
symptoms as yearling)

GGrandsire: MSU Optimum Z03
Grandsire: MSU Optimum ZO3 son (Registered Polled Hereford)
GGranddam: Louada Voyageur 4W daughter

Dam: Hereford commercial cow 1M (IEC)

GGrandsire: Felton's 517 son (Registered Polled Hereford)
Granddam: Hereford commercial cow 35G
GGranddam: Hereford commercial cow 37X - daughter of RWJ Victor bull

I suppose, looking at it this way, the maternal carrier gene could have come through the commercial maternal side of the pedigree.

 

[smnherf]

Aaron,

How may calves have you had that you seen have a seizure? You can't blame all your problems on the newsest genetic defect you learned about.

Brian

 

[Aaron]

Aaron,

How may calves have you had that you seen have a seizure? You can't blame all your problems on the newsest genetic defect you learned about.

Brian

Over the past two years, three for sure. When the bull had his attacks, we decided to use him very lightly, like somewhere in the range of 12 cows over two years, in case it was transmittable. The fella who we bought the bull from had the vet come in (a year after we bought the bull) and test some of his epileptic commercial cattle (Gelbvieh and Red Angus) and the tests came back as carriers for IE on the old herd bull from Manitoba, and about a dozen GxRA cows.

The IE thing is new to me, and apparently anyone I talk to about it. As I understand it, the AHA has been talking about the topic for years with their members (so someone like WLM, is very well informed). The CHA finally came out and mentioned about doing genetic testing for it this year in their newsletter. Although a few phone calls to larger Polled breeders in and out of the province resulted in the usual response, "What's that?", "Really!?"..."Oh it's just a Horned problem". The CHA office's official response was to match the AHA in testing procedures, but that unofficially, the woman told me, based on registrations from carrier sires, they consider IE to be an American Horned Hereford problem. So don't be surprised that I wasn't aware of EI. Many breeders up here aren't either. Had I lived stateside, I may have been much better informed. :cowboy:

 

[smnherf]

You confuse me Aaron, In your last post, last paragraph, you say the IE thing is new to you but in the first paragraph you said your crossbred bull you tested positive for IE but then in your first post you said the bull was already gone off the place. I can't figure out how you can recently find out about IE but then have already tested a bull previously for IE. Explanation??

Brian

 

[hillsdown]

http://genex.crinet.com/page2824/IdiopathicEpilepsy
Idiopathic EpilepsyGenex bulls tested for Idiopathic Epilepsy
Results as of 11/17/09

Idiopathic Epilepsy (IE) in Hereford Cattle
Symptoms: Age of onset (occurrence of the first seizure) can be variable, ranging from birth to several months of age. Occurrence and persistence of seizures may be influenced by environmental stressors such as temperature extremes (e.g., extreme cold during calving) or increased physical activity (e.g., processing at vaccination or weaning). Upon initial onset of seizure episodes individuals will typically lie on their side with all limbs extended in a rigid state. Manual flexing of the limbs is possible, but return to the extended position occurs after release. Seizure episodes may last from several minutes to more than an hour. Autosomal recessive.
-No anatomic abnormalities or histologic lesions detected.
-Confirmation by American Hereford Association approved expert.

Breeding to Avoid Abnormalities
Breeders that may have a problem with a simple recessive abnormality can make use of available DNA-based diagnostic tests or implement mating systems designed to reduce the frequency of the abnormal gene in their herds and the breed. Where a DNA-based test is available, breeders can directly test animals for the presence of a specific mutation causing the disease. Animals confirmed to be carriers should be used cautiously, and serious consideration should be given to their removal from the seedstock breeding herd. However, breeders should guard against carelessly throwing away good genetics because a sire or dam is a carrier unless that animal's good characteristics remain available in the breed from another source. In the absence of a DNA-based test, mating systems should rely on the use of bulls known not to have produced affected calves. Sons of carrier animals can be used if they have been tested free of the abnormality through a series of special test matings. Mating a bull to seven affected females, 17 carrier cows or 35 of his own daughters with no abnormal offspring provides three ways to test for the presence of a recessive gene. With specific regard to non-lethal abnormalities, each breeder must assess the potential economic impact the abnormality may have on his operation.

 

[Aaron]

You confuse me Aaron, In your last post, last paragraph, you say the IE thing is new to you but in the first paragraph you said your crossbred bull you tested positive for IE but then in your first post you said the bull was already gone off the place. I can't figure out how you can recently find out about IE but then have already tested a bull previously for IE. Explanation??

Brian

Sorry about that. Thought it might get confusing. It wasn't the crossbred bull that was tested. It was his purebred Gelbvieh sire that was tested and was an IE carrier, along with his dam and other cows. The crossbred bull displayed EI starting about 6 months of age and quit at about 18 months. :cowboy:

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Ever time you post, I get more confused. Was it EI or IE he had? And this was the purebred Gelbvieh? Keep us posted.

 

[dun]

And this was the purebred Gelbvieh? Keep us posted.

The problem with it being purebred rather then full blood is that it could have come from the non-Gelbvieh part

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Yeah, I'm sure lots of Gelbviehs were bred up from Line One Herefords.

 

[smnherf]

You confuse me Aaron, In your last post, last paragraph, you say the IE thing is new to you but in the first paragraph you said your crossbred bull you tested positive for IE but then in your first post you said the bull was already gone off the place. I can't figure out how you can recently find out about IE but then have already tested a bull previously for IE. Explanation??

Brian

Sorry about that. Thought it might get confusing. It wasn't the crossbred bull that was tested. It was his purebred Gelbvieh sire that was tested and was an IE carrier, along with his dam and other cows. The crossbred bull displayed EI starting about 6 months of age and quit at about 18 months. :cowboy:

When was this done and which lab did the test for IE in Gelvieh?

Brian

 

[Aaron]

Ever time you post, I get more confused. Was it EI or IE he had? And this was the purebred Gelbvieh? Keep us posted.

Sorry. IE. It was a purebred bull 94%. http://www.gelbvieh.org/searchca/animal ... =CDGV38030 :cowboy:

 

[Aaron]

You confuse me Aaron, In your last post, last paragraph, you say the IE thing is new to you but in the first paragraph you said your crossbred bull you tested positive for IE but then in your first post you said the bull was already gone off the place. I can't figure out how you can recently find out about IE but then have already tested a bull previously for IE. Explanation??

Brian

Sorry about that. Thought it might get confusing. It wasn't the crossbred bull that was tested. It was his purebred Gelbvieh sire that was tested and was an IE carrier, along with his dam and other cows. The crossbred bull displayed EI starting about 6 months of age and quit at about 18 months. :cowboy:

When was this done and which lab did the test for IE in Gelvieh?

Brian

About a year ago or so I suppose. Vet sent it off, not my bull so don't know where too. I do know the CHA is using a lab in Guelph, Ontario for their IE testing.

 

[jenran]

Well .. hmm .. where to start ! LOL !

Aaron .. it does not sound to me that the calves you had were NOT definatively diagnosed as having IE. To have those calves express that both the cow and the sire would have had to be carriers. I am sure your vet mentioned to you that there are other health conditions that can cause seizures in calves .. including swelling of the brain .. which can be caused from various things .. also ..poisoning can do the same thing .. and yet it is possible for the calves to recover. I have not heard one FACT that links chronic bloating to IE ..

As far as the CHA is concerned .. I am not sure who you spoke to there .. but one needs to make sure they are speaking to someone there with knowledge of the genetic defect issues on a larger scale ... I asked them about 5 years ago if I could test a cow for the diluter gene .. and the secretary told me "no one had ANY cattle test positive .. that is was very expensive and no one was doing it" .... WHAT ??? who are we kidding ... the diluter gene has affected a TON of cattle up here ! (and I know people who told me that they DID have cattle test positive !!) :roll: I am disappointed that you were told it was an "american problem" .. and for the number of polled breeders in Canada who are using horned genetics .. you cannot really say it is a horned problem either.

I very much doubt that the test that was done on that Gelvieh bull was done in Canada .. the lab in Guelph has just taken over Canada's DNA testing in the last 6 months or so .. and before that the only was to test for IE ... or diluter even was to send it to a lab in the US .. any IE testing that I was aware of was done through the AHA and that American lab.

If you really want to know the cause of your problem .. and I would seriously suggest doing this before you speculate on the breeding that you THINK has caused this problem for you. .. TEST YOUR COWS .. and unless you have a definate pedigree on them .. you are in trouble ... but hear say about what breeding you THINK may have caused you a problem (a problem that you have not PROVEN to be IE) .. can be pretty detrimental to your fellow breeders .. and the whole breed as well. Be sure you have some "proof" before you make accusations ..

On another note .. I would be interested to know if the problem exists in other breeds .. I had not heard of any ..

Jen

 

[KNERSIE]

On another note .. I would be interested to know if the problem exists in other breeds .. I had not heard of any ..

Me neither, everything I've read only referred to L1 herefords. L1 breeders like Ned.Jr will definately know more about this than the rest of us combined, wish he would join in.

 

[smnherf]

On another note .. I would be interested to know if the problem exists in other breeds .. I had not heard of any ..

Me neither, everything I've read only referred to L1 herefords. L1 breeders like Ned.Jr will definately know more about this than the rest of us combined, wish he would join in.

It seems like I read where epilepsy does occur in other breeds but I thought that Dr Beever was the first one to come up with a DNA test for it. With the bulls you have used Aaron, I highly doubt you have carrier cows as there has been quite a bit of testing done and I am unaware of any polled cattle with IE unless they had some line 1 cattle in their pedigree.