I was sold a cow with Johne's, what do I do?

[davefal]

Hi there,

We're new to raising cattle and have just 2 pregnant cows and 2 calves. We recently (3 months ago) brought our second pregnant cow from a local small farmer. The cow looked OK but a bit skinny. After a few weeks we noticed she was eating well but losing weight and had diarrhea. Our vet diagnosed and confirmed this as Johne's. We're not sure how to proceed with this, the animal was obviously sick when we brought her, does anybody know if we we have any right to go back to the seller and return the sick cow, we also now have to get our other cows tested to see if they are infected, we just don't know where we stand with regards to purchasing livestock that turns out to be sick when we purchased it. We know that nobody on here can give us any legal advice but any tips or helpful advice would be much appreciated. We're praying that the other cow's haven't been infected as we don't want to have to get rid of them.

Thanks and all the best,

Dave.

 

[dun]

First thing is isolate the sick cow. Second I would go back and talk to the seller, I'm not sure if there is any legal recourse. If the guy is a decent sort he'll take her back and make it right. He may actually be gratefull for calling his attention to it.

 

[Sir Loin]

The first thing you need to do is dig a hole, a BIG hole!

The second thing you need to understand is that you bought the cow "where is, as is" unless you have some other written agreement.
Now shoot the cow.
Sorry!
SL

 

[ga.prime]

The first thing you need to do is dig a hole, a BIG hole!

The second thing you need to understand is that you bought the cow "where is, as is" unless you have some other written agreement.
Now shoot the cow.
Sorry!
SL

Cows with johnnes go through the sale ring and the packing house every day of the year.

 

[bigbull338]

the only thing you can do is send that johns cow to the sale.an have the other cow an calves tested.an if they are pos send emm to the sale.the only cure for johns is the kill pen.sorry your learning cattle the hard way.

 

[angus9259]

First thing is isolate the sick cow. Second I would go back and talk to the seller, I'm not sure if there is any legal recourse. If the guy is a decent sort he'll take her back and make it right. He may actually be gratefull for calling his attention to it.

:nod:

I assume the seller would like the cow taken to the sale barn instead of back to his farm. If it were me, I'd give you the difference between what you get at the salebarn and what you paid. I'd split the calf and hand raise or sell to someone who wants to hand raise.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Cows with johnnes go through the sale ring and the packing house every day of the year

Not in TN they don't.
You take one to Athen's stockyard and it will be black flagged before it even gets off the trailer. And if by some chance you did get one off, no one would bid on it and you will end up taking it home anyway.
And to boot your reputation is shot to hill. And from that day on you will be hard pressed to get market value for any of your cattle.
Here is a little known fact for ya.
If the big boys, who know cattle inside and out, and can spot a defect in less then 2 seconds in the ring, and they don't bid, NOBODY BIDS.

SL

 

[ga.prime]

Re:

Cows with johnnes go through the sale ring and the packing house every day of the year

Not in TN they don't.
You take one to Athen's stockyard and it will be black flagged before it even gets off the trailer. And if by some chance you did get one off, no one would bid on it and you will end up taking it home anyway.
And to boot your reputation is shot to hill. And from that day on you will be hard pressed to get market value for any of your cattle.
Here is a little known fact for ya.
If the big boys, who know cattle inside and out, and can spot a defect in less then 2 seconds in the ring, and they don't bid, NOBODY BIDS.

SL

How do they know it has johnnes? How can they tell one in the early stages of johnnes? They don't and can't . They are bought and sold and slaughtered every day that rolls around. There's no law against it.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

How do they know it has johnnes?

It's not hard to see brown water squirting out 3 feet and not know what the problem is!
Or see or smell it all over the inside of the trailer.

They are bought and sold and slaughtered every day that rolls around.

Maybe in Ga. But not here in TN.

There's no law against it.

Tn law requires all bulls brought into the state be quarantined for 30 days, just for this reason.
Yes you can sell them but no one wants them, except an idiot, and if you were lucky enough to sell them it would be for hide and dog food prices only.
Remember at the action, all sales are final and what you see is what you get.
It is strictly a caveat emptor deal.
SL

 

[ga.prime]

Tn law requires all bulls brought into the state be quarantined for 30 days, just for this reason.

What reason? Who quarantines them where? What happens when the 30 days are up? Explain how that works. Why just bulls and not cows and calves?

 

[djinwa]

You could talk to the seller and see what kind of guy he is. He might just say he didn't know about it, though you have to to wonder. Eventually you will learn with cattle to not trust anyone, just like car salesmen. You will notice the usual advice here is to sell your problem cows to the next sucker.

Anyway, I have not experienced Johnes, but just did some reading. You say you are testing the other cows, but unfortunately they could have been infected and be negative on the tests for the first several months or years.

The young are more susceptible to infection, especially calves. The organism can go through the milk to a calf, and some can even be infected in the uterus. Is one of your calves from this infected cow?

The organism is in the manure from the infected cow and can survive for a year in the environment. So you need to get that cow out of there now, and clean up all manure. Be careful to keep feed off the ground where manure could have been. And maybe move the other cows to a different area, though it may be too late.

And calves can get it from manure that gets on the teats.

Here's a few random sites to read from:

http://www.vermontagriculture.com/fscp/ ... nesbro.pdf

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/ ... le3-06.pdf

 

[ga.prime]

You will notice the usual advice here is to sell your problem cows to the next sucker

I've never noticed that. In the thousands of posts I've read on here I don't think I've ever seen that advocated even one time.

 

[CKC1586]

Work with your vet and follow their advice. Can be false negatives. Get your other cows that were exposed to this cow tested, but need to test more than one time....Johnes is bad news indeed.

 

[angus9259]

Work with your vet and follow their advice. Can be false negatives.

This is great advice. There are false positives - in fact, the testing is shaky at best. The only way to have a confirmed Johnes case is to do a multi-stage fecal culture (per my vet) when I had a false positive.

 

[VanC]

You will notice the usual advice here is to sell your problem cows to the next sucker

I've never noticed that. In the thousands of posts I've read on here I don't think I've ever seen that advocated even one time.

I've seen it a couple of times, GP, but it's rare. Awhile back someone was bragging about sewing up a cow that had proplapsed twice, breeding her, and selling her as a bred cow. Most of us called him out for being dishonest but a couple of folks defended him. To some folks "buyer beware" is an excuse for dishonesty, but most feel there's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Who quarantines them where? What happens when the 30 days are up? Explain how that works. Why just bulls and not cows and calves?

I can't tell you much more then I already told you because, as I live in the state, I never had one quarantined.
As for bulls only, I guess because an infected bull could infect a whole herd, where as a cow/calf may not.
I will see what I can find out.
SL

Re:

most feel there's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

Amen to that!
When you cross that line you not only hurt your own reputation but that of the entire cattle industry as a whole.
So learn to man up and take your losses like a man as they are just a part of the cattle business.

SL

 

[Sir Loin]

ga.prime
I can't seen to find any TN law pertaining to quarantine for Johne;s.
I must have been reading a "proposed legislation" that did not pass, instead of an actual law..
What I read was the exact same as quarantine for "Bovine Trichomoniasis " in TN.
My bad! For now.
See:
Bovine Trichomoniasis (venereal disease of cattle )
http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publicati ... niasis.pdf


Here is Ga "Import Testing Requirement Now in Effect in Georgia"'
http://agr.georgia.gov/import-testing-r ... orgia.aspx

SL


SL
PS What do you expect from an old far-? Perfection??

 

[regolith]

Let the seller know the cow had Johne's. Cull her.
The seller may not have known it was in his herd, or that she had it.

Maybe you guys know more than I do, but my understanding was that Johnes is only transmitted to calves under six months old, then can become clinical in the older animal under stress - all of my cows with it have been 7 - 9 years old. The highest risk for contracting it will be the cow's own calf, and any young calves on the property, who may show symptoms when they're older. Transmission between adult cows is less likely.
The first I saw Johne's was moving to a new part of the country - I was unaware that it was endemic there and every single group of cows I've bought from that area has since turned up one with Johne's. So far, none of the calves born to my herd and it's been five years. In a situation like that when pretty much every herd has it - buyer beware applies.

FYI Sir Loin, the quarantine period for identifying Johne's should probably be about fifteen years.

 

[CKC1586]

Work with your vet and follow their advice. Can be false negatives.

This is great advice. There are false positives - in fact, the testing is shaky at best. The only way to have a confirmed Johnes case is to do a multi-stage fecal culture (per my vet) when I had a false positive.

I meant false positives, glad you got my drift. Gotta test more than once to determine if it really is Johnes, then need to test and retest the herd if you really do have a positive case before you can get an all clear.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i dont believe you can really eyeball one and tell,,, some may figure they got a heavy parisite load.. get em cheap, take em home and work em. to fatten up