I could use some advice about calves/cattle

[CabinetMaker]

Hi all. I'm not a rancher, but I am forced to know about cattle. I'm going through a waking nightmare, where somehow I became responsible for the safety of someone else's calves. (No joke.) Yet, I have no control over protection, fencing, shooting anything, etc; I cannot even go on their property. They wouldn't even let the FWC on their land, so they could help them out with their, supposedly, severe coyote problem.
I have done a bunch of research about raising calves/cattle and predators, but I figured I should ask the real ranchers. I'm in Florida. I'm not sure if things are done the same everywhere, or if what I'm dealing with is unique. Sorry if this is long, if you only can answer a few, that is very appreciated.
What size acreage/herd do you consider a hobby farm?
When do you guys tag your calves? Is there a case where you don't tag calves?
During calving season, do you have someone watching the heifers when the gestation period comes close to an end, especially if you are having a known predator problem?
Do you pen your heifers, or keep them in a barn, or something, when you suspect they are going to drop a calf, to keep them safe from predators?
Do you have a regular vet?
When you find a dead animal, can you with 100% certainty tell what killed the animal?
What do you do when you're having a known predator problem? (If you had a small herd <50)
Would you trust cattle guards to keep coyotes out of your pasture?
I was wondering if you guys use propane cannons for protection, (The ones designed to scare birds out of orchards,) against coyotes?
If not, what else do you use?
This picture isn't great, but can you tell how much this calf weighs and exactly what killed it?
Again, sorry if this is long. I really appreciate your time to help me. If you could point me to studies and official websites, even better. I've done a lot of homework, but I assume you guys have information that I, just a mere mortal, wouldn't know about.
Again, thanks so much for your time.

 

[callmefence]

If you can't get lost on your place while sober. You gotta hobby farm.

I tag the ones i can catch easy

I check heifers as often as possible. Maybe 10 times a day maybe twice.

My heifers are in a 7 acre pen.

No
I have two irregular vets

A cattle guard will not even slow down a coyote.

My best guess is that calf was scared to death by a propane cannon...but it's impossible to be sure.

PostScript.....one dead calf is hardly a nightmare. Unless you make it one.

 

[M-5]

Hi all. I'm not a rancher, but I am forced to know about cattle. I'm going through a waking nightmare, where somehow I became responsible for the safety of someone else's calves. (No joke.) Yet, I have no control over protection, fencing, shooting anything, etc; I cannot even go on their property. They wouldn't even let the FWC on their land, so they could help them out with their, supposedly, severe coyote problem.
I have done a bunch of research about raising calves/cattle and predators, but I figured I should ask the real ranchers. I'm in Florida. I'm not sure if things are done the same everywhere, or if what I'm dealing with is unique. Sorry if this is long, if you only can answer a few, that is very appreciated
What size acreage/herd do you consider a hobby farm?.Hobby is something you don't make money with , size has little to do with it
When do you guys tag your calves? Is there a case where you don't tag calves?some at birth some at weaning
During calving season, do you have someone watching the heifers when the gestation period comes close to an end, especially if you are having a known predator problem?morning and night , I work off the farm
Do you pen your heifers, or keep them in a barn, or something, when you suspect they are going to drop a calf, to keep them safe from predators?no
Do you have a regular vet? yes , has not been to my place in 10 years or so
When you find a dead animal, can you with 100% certainty tell what killed the animal? not always but some signs are obvious
What do you do when you're having a known predator problem? (If you had a small herd <50)things that some consider inhumane
Would you trust cattle guards to keep coyotes out of your pasture?no
I was wondering if you guys use propane cannons for protection, (The ones designed to scare birds out of orchards,) against coyotes? no
If not, what else do you use?
This picture isn't great, but can you tell how much this calf weighs and exactly what killed it? I cant get picture to enlarge but it appears eaten. If this is the fresh kill I would look to see if the eyes are removed and if so would suspect mexicun buzzards , although a coyote could be responsible . usually a dog just kills it and does not eat it from my experience , your location has panthers but I don't think they eat their prey on site
Again, sorry if this is long. I really appreciate your time to help me. If you could point me to studies and official websites, even better. I've done a lot of homework, but I assume you guys have information that I, just a mere mortal, wouldn't know about.
Again, thanks so much for your time.

 

[Rafter S]

" I'm going through a waking nightmare, where somehow I became responsible for the safety of someone else's calves."

Let me guess. A neighbor has a dead calf, and is blaming your dogs for it?

 

[bball]

If you're the defendant in the case, the burden of proof falls on the plaintiff. Would have to provide evidence to prove the calf's death is your fault or responsibility. Pics, videos, eyewitness testimony/affidavit. He said/she said will work in your favor as a defendant, unless you say something to incriminate yourself.

 

[Nesikep]

responsibility with no control? I'd tell them to go pound sand, I'm not taking any responsibility..

 

[CabinetMaker]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I forgot to add, that picture is the only physical evidence that a coyote killed a 200lb calf.

They have large gaps in their gates and fencing. They keep their gates open to all pastures, which are about 50 acres. They have one place that has no fence, only cattle guards. There is another place, from our property to theirs, that has no fence. (There is a clear game trail there too.) It's down a bit from the cattle guards and we have had their cattle on our property before. Basically, coyotes can easily just go from our property to theirs and cross a cattle guard. Or, just go under their gate gaps.
They claimed the propane cannon, was to keep coyotes away from their calves. It sounded 2 blasts, every half hour, 24hrs a day for 2 months, then from dusk till dawn for about another 2 months. The claimed the cannon is the ONLY thing that keeps coyotes away from their calves, during their calving season, (But they didn't know the gestation period when asked.) They wanted me to be responsible, if they were forced to turn it off. They wouldn't take any help I offered. I contacted trappers and FWC.
They now want me to responsible for the death of this calf. The picture and their word is all they have. They stated it was a steer calf, that's it. No other information was given. I never saw the calf before, or after it was killed. No third party verification. I don't know who, or where they sell their cattle.
So, we are going in front of a judge, who is also, not a rancher.
I thought I would ask the real experts here, for their opinion.
I don't own dogs, or any farm animals.

 

[Craig Miller]

Did you turn off the cannon? Wether you did or not and not hearing the other side of the story and only parts of your side...i don't see how they can even make a claim.

 

[CabinetMaker]

A judge made them turn off the cannon. Made me responsible if a calf was killed by a coyote and only if it was killed by a coyote.
The cannon was not the first, or the last, attempt at harassing us off our land.

 

[bball]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I forgot to add, that picture is the only physical evidence that a coyote killed a 200lb calf.

They have large gaps in their gates and fencing. They keep their gates open to all pastures, which are about 50 acres. They have one place that has no fence, only cattle guards. There is another place, from our property to theirs, that has no fence. (There is a clear game trail there too.) It's down a bit from the cattle guards and we have had their cattle on our property before. Basically, coyotes can easily just go from our property to theirs and cross a cattle guard. Or, just go under their gate gaps.
They claimed the propane cannon, was to keep coyotes away from their calves. It sounded 2 blasts, every half hour, 24hrs a day for 2 months, then from dusk till dawn for about another 2 months. The claimed the cannon is the ONLY thing that keeps coyotes away from their calves, during their calving season, (But they didn't know the gestation period when asked.) They wanted me to be responsible, if they were forced to turn it off. They wouldn't take any help I offered. I contacted trappers and FWC.
They now want me to responsible for the death of this calf. The picture and their word is all they have. They stated it was a steer calf, that's it. No other information was given. I never saw the calf before, or after it was killed. No third party verification. I don't know who, or where they sell their cattle.
So, we are going in front of a judge, who is also, not a rancher.
I thought I would ask the real experts here, for their opinion.
I don't own dogs, or any farm animals.

So, does this imply you were able to get the cannon shut down because of noise nuisance complaint? And since you got their cannon shut off, and a coyote killed their calf, it's your fault? Is that the just of this? If so, they're going to have a tough time winning that I suspect.

 

[bball]

A judge made them turn off the cannon. Made me responsible if a calf was killed by a coyote and only if it was killed by a coyote.
The cannon was not the first, or the last, attempt at harassing us off our land.

The judge made YOU responsible if a coyote killed one of their calfs?

 

[bball]

Even still, should need real evidence that a coyote did the damage and not a dog, or some other predator. Again, pics, game camera, eyewitness should be required, (or expert testimony from an animal forensics investigator :roll: )

 

[M-5]

So you got an injunction on them to stop using the cannon and they are pissed and filed a suit and are saying because you made them stop the calf died as the result . I would make them prove it or else pound sand.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Being a steer calf is a big plus, improper banding or cutting can kill a calf, and not giving the calf a tetanus shot can kill a calf, and not giving the calf a tetanus booster can kill a calf. Your not responsible for their cows or calves.

 

[BRYANT]

I don't think they can prove anything or make you pay. getting a judgment is one thing collecting is another, but I don't think they can even get a judgment. way to many thing could have killed the calf.
keep us posted on how it turns out.

 

[CabinetMaker]

All of you are right. It's so ridiculous. When it's all over, I will post their name, business name and address. (Their main business is not from cattle.)
Our neighbor wants our land. They wanted our property, before we bought it. We found out the previous sellers refused to sell it to them, after they low balled them. (I can only assume they were harassing the previous owners too.)
We are going through the same exact thing. After we lived here for about a year, they gave us a low ball offer for our property. I told them I wasn't interested and they threatened to bring down our property value. They said if I didn't sell to them, right then and there, I would be forced to sell to them, as they will make it that no one else would ever want to live here.
They have followed through with their threats. The harassment has been going on for three years now. The cannon was the last straw. Their pasture butts up to our property in our front yard, about 100 ft from my front door. You can guess where they put that cannon.
We were forced to take them to court to stop the constant explosions. They claimed it's purpose was to keep coyotes from killing their calves. They stated they were having a massive problem with coyotes and the cannon HAD to be in front of our house, because it was in the middle of their pastures. Their lawyer screamed we should be responsible, if any calves were killed if the cannon was turned off, as the cannon was the one and ONLY thing keeping their calves safe. The judge isn't a rancher, so he agreed. I had to agree too, or leave my house. It was like living in a war zone.
I made a ton of phone calls, to try to help them. They wouldn't allow any trappers on their land, or FWC. It just seemed to anger them. (More harassment.)
No surprise when a calf turned up dead. Of course, they claimed it was by a coyote and only a coyote. Look again at that picture. Tell me how much that animal weighs and what it was killed by.
I have to go before a judge now and talk about someone else's cattle. He has to decide whether to believe people who call themselves, 'experts,' or me...and there are more of them. All I have is research. This is why I ended up here, to ask people who really are experts.
Thanks for your advice.

 

[Craig Miller]

Look into regulations concerning use of bird cannons. Some areas have them saying where they can be placed, how close to neighbors and such. Also I think there have been other cases like yours. There could be a precedent set to go off of .

 

[M-5]

Florida does have right to farm so you may have an uphill Battle. http://centralfloridaagnews.com/right-to-farm-act/

 

[bball]

Well, they still have to prove that a coyote did that. Speculation is not evidence. Sounds like you're living smack dab in the middle of a real jackpot.

Will you be standing before the same judge that ordered you replace calfs lost to coyotes?

 

[bball]

Some interesting reading about cannons and sirens for coyote in the last topic..

https://wildsafebc.com/coyote/