ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
Dont think he left,, he's posting pics on the begginner board now... musta figured he wasnt ready for primetime yetplumber_greg":2j3rxfu6 said:
I believe in equal opportunities.....
- Thread starter KNERSIE
- Start date
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TexasBred
Well-known member
I luv herfrds":3eu2rglt said:
ILF I've known a lot of folks that did things over 40 years and were still dumb as a rock. You can't learn by just being around, and a dozen people can stand and look at the same animal and give you a dozen differnet opinions. Knersie posted the pic and said "have at it" or something to that effect. Perhaps thinking noone would disagree with his own opinion of it having been analyzed by the best in his area or country. Same "experts" from another area might not like the bull at all. Some didn't like the bull and posted to that affect. No harm done.
I luv herfrds
Well-known member
Come on TB I gotta poke at someone once in awhile. ;-) ;-)
Like Grandpa always told me, "You stop learning the day you die."
I have learned alot on here from everyone and took their shots at our animals too.
Like Grandpa always told me, "You stop learning the day you die."
I have learned alot on here from everyone and took their shots at our animals too.
Bonsman
Well-known member
I love the bull's girth. He will have a lot of heart. And although it is hard to see, he appears to have very broad shoulders. The broad shoulders should allow his females to have large pelvic areas and be easy calvers. JMO
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Chuckie":1f6ck928 said:
Chuckie
I have read - and re-read - your post here several times, and I am quick to admit that I am somewhat confused! Are you referring to the bull calf first pictured on this thread, - or - his sire?? Did you really question the "angles" and "straightness" factors on the same animal(s)?
". . . so many different angles and make them stay together'" ??? Could you be more specific please? ". . . Straight, straight, and his back and loin area to his rump, and to his tail would be perfect for a saddle." ???
I am confused as to your exact meaning(s).
We all should be reading from the same page to alleviate confusion.
DOC HARRIS
Hi Doc!
Wow, the last time we talked, you were throwing handfuls of rocks at both of my bulls.
You know how angry I get, don't ya? ;-) I am still finding Kleenex around the house after that episode.
First, let me put on my ''Rose Colored Glasses," to hide all the truth," and listen to my favorite song by John Conlee, to have to look back over this mess.....
Then I will just tell you what I think of each bull, how is that? I will do THE SIRE FIRST, then come back and do the little one. Then I won't have to dart back and forth to those blocks that get plastered on the pages. uggghhhh!!!! I hate to get confused with things myself, if you know what I mean?????
All Right...
Now Doc....I know you used to ride horses, and may still do. But of the two of those bulls, which one of these bulls, does the back, look like a horse???? Withers, back, loin, rump, and all. I have a saddle picked out for this one already. His tail is set awfully high though. With his legs so far back out from underneath him, I guess he make a good jumper, but it better be a short ride, because his legs and pasterns are so straight, he is going to hit the ground so hard, that he will jar your false teeth right out of your mouth if you didn't bring an extra tube of Polident.
Wait, I had my SUNGLASSES on!!! It is a bull. Can you imagine him trying to pull his "conchos" up over a high fence! Awwgghhh!!
The Sire again.
This bull has straight shoulders, legs and pasterns. His right front foot almost looks like it turns out. His legs are so straight, it looks like they should have spikes coming from the hooves, going into the ground, just like a wooden sign, that is holding the bull up. The legs on this bull do not look real.
I cannot judge the topline on this bull. He looks to he have a good neck on him, even though he has and is wide coming over his shoulder, but after that, I sometimes think he looks good, then he looks like an "A" frame.
His flank is pinched, which also appears to be thin over his loin area. He looks "A" framed over the rump, just beyond the loin. There is a small strip of light there, that seems to show a pronounced area. He should be very hard and full in this area. This bull should be round and hard in hindquarters. Lots and lots of meat should be on the top and bottom.
He looks like he could finish off to a good leg, but I think the hair on the front of his gaskin muscle was left there for a reason. Or they may have run over one of the sheep in one of the judging classes. Or do they shear that off? Maybe Sammy Davis Jr. is still alive.
I have to really-really fault him on this. "Chuckie's Thoughts of Ideal:" when you have a tilting rear end, (Pin bones much higher than the hook bones) such as the sire has, where the anus is tilted in a manner that it is sunk lower than the vulva of the cow, that when she makes a "doo-doo" it will hit the vulva every time, then hit the ground. This is a very big problem that I would not want to take. This creates an infection that does not go away. This could be a nightmare if every heifer you saved out of this bull had this problem. Or the bull you saved for your herd bull, would pass this trait. Visual traits such as these are strong traits to be passed on to the calves. Do not pass GO....Go straight to Jail !!!!! And I didn't have to go to a class or have a handbook to know that. Who are these judges going from house to house???? Cousins and uncles?
This bull would travel terribly. He would not be able to get his legs up underneath him for two reasons. One: they are sooooooo straight. I can see this bull going lame early. His hocks are soooooo straight. And if he tried to get his legs up underneath him, he could not, look at how his pin bones are so much higher than his hooks. He is going to walk like a little short legged fat girl in pair of stiletto high heels for the first time.
What is with the roll of skin above his hooves??? I do not like this. It looks like a bad problem to me. Like skin between the toes to develop next.....
If Judges go from house to house in South Africa, and this bull passed as a breeding bull with flying colors, I don't understand it. Yes, he does carry some meat. And so does a Wagyu. But this bull has some issues in my book. I would go there with the judges, sit with them and drink the Margaritas, and laugh, then I would get in the truck and be on my Merry way. They would read about it in next week's paper.
I thought maybe Herefords had not made it there in South Africa yet, and when I looked them up, I was wrong. But none looked like the two here. Unless it was the cattle that Ned Jr was speaking of. Ned Jr. is like Superman. He speaks about truth, justice, and the American way!!!!!! I will tackle the little bull tonight since I do not sleep! I may come up with some new angles. Haaaaaa-haaaaa!!!!!!!
Stay up late Doc!
Chuckie
Wow, the last time we talked, you were throwing handfuls of rocks at both of my bulls.
You know how angry I get, don't ya? ;-) I am still finding Kleenex around the house after that episode.
First, let me put on my ''Rose Colored Glasses," to hide all the truth," and listen to my favorite song by John Conlee, to have to look back over this mess.....
Then I will just tell you what I think of each bull, how is that? I will do THE SIRE FIRST, then come back and do the little one. Then I won't have to dart back and forth to those blocks that get plastered on the pages. uggghhhh!!!! I hate to get confused with things myself, if you know what I mean?????
All Right...
Now Doc....I know you used to ride horses, and may still do. But of the two of those bulls, which one of these bulls, does the back, look like a horse???? Withers, back, loin, rump, and all. I have a saddle picked out for this one already. His tail is set awfully high though. With his legs so far back out from underneath him, I guess he make a good jumper, but it better be a short ride, because his legs and pasterns are so straight, he is going to hit the ground so hard, that he will jar your false teeth right out of your mouth if you didn't bring an extra tube of Polident.
Wait, I had my SUNGLASSES on!!! It is a bull. Can you imagine him trying to pull his "conchos" up over a high fence! Awwgghhh!!
The Sire again.
This bull has straight shoulders, legs and pasterns. His right front foot almost looks like it turns out. His legs are so straight, it looks like they should have spikes coming from the hooves, going into the ground, just like a wooden sign, that is holding the bull up. The legs on this bull do not look real.
I cannot judge the topline on this bull. He looks to he have a good neck on him, even though he has and is wide coming over his shoulder, but after that, I sometimes think he looks good, then he looks like an "A" frame.
His flank is pinched, which also appears to be thin over his loin area. He looks "A" framed over the rump, just beyond the loin. There is a small strip of light there, that seems to show a pronounced area. He should be very hard and full in this area. This bull should be round and hard in hindquarters. Lots and lots of meat should be on the top and bottom.
He looks like he could finish off to a good leg, but I think the hair on the front of his gaskin muscle was left there for a reason. Or they may have run over one of the sheep in one of the judging classes. Or do they shear that off? Maybe Sammy Davis Jr. is still alive.
I have to really-really fault him on this. "Chuckie's Thoughts of Ideal:" when you have a tilting rear end, (Pin bones much higher than the hook bones) such as the sire has, where the anus is tilted in a manner that it is sunk lower than the vulva of the cow, that when she makes a "doo-doo" it will hit the vulva every time, then hit the ground. This is a very big problem that I would not want to take. This creates an infection that does not go away. This could be a nightmare if every heifer you saved out of this bull had this problem. Or the bull you saved for your herd bull, would pass this trait. Visual traits such as these are strong traits to be passed on to the calves. Do not pass GO....Go straight to Jail !!!!! And I didn't have to go to a class or have a handbook to know that. Who are these judges going from house to house???? Cousins and uncles?
This bull would travel terribly. He would not be able to get his legs up underneath him for two reasons. One: they are sooooooo straight. I can see this bull going lame early. His hocks are soooooo straight. And if he tried to get his legs up underneath him, he could not, look at how his pin bones are so much higher than his hooks. He is going to walk like a little short legged fat girl in pair of stiletto high heels for the first time.
What is with the roll of skin above his hooves??? I do not like this. It looks like a bad problem to me. Like skin between the toes to develop next.....
If Judges go from house to house in South Africa, and this bull passed as a breeding bull with flying colors, I don't understand it. Yes, he does carry some meat. And so does a Wagyu. But this bull has some issues in my book. I would go there with the judges, sit with them and drink the Margaritas, and laugh, then I would get in the truck and be on my Merry way. They would read about it in next week's paper.
I thought maybe Herefords had not made it there in South Africa yet, and when I looked them up, I was wrong. But none looked like the two here. Unless it was the cattle that Ned Jr was speaking of. Ned Jr. is like Superman. He speaks about truth, justice, and the American way!!!!!! I will tackle the little bull tonight since I do not sleep! I may come up with some new angles. Haaaaaa-haaaaa!!!!!!!
Stay up late Doc!
Chuckie
Man oh man!
Chuckie, you and the Doc must have quite the running feud going.
Chuckie, you and the Doc must have quite the running feud going.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Chuckie-
Thank you for your illuminating response to my apparently ill-conceived interpretation of your post relating to this thread. My purpose in questioning your focus of intent on these two bulls was not done in a critical manner; merely to clarify the motivation of reasoning for your judging commentaries. I have no "rocks to throw", or axes to grind pertaining to your vision through your "Rose Colored Glasses" of illusory perceptions of either or both of these bulls. My perplexity was concomitant with my confusion as to the identifiation of the two bulls in your post - vis-a-vis - which one was which? You have defined that bewilderment to my satisfaction. I hope that you have not had to crack open another Kleenex box!
In regard to the rather extensive "reasons" given for your interpretive judging decisions of the various Phenotypic characteristics and traits of the two bulls, I choose to defer commentary to a more specified criticism encompassing pragmatism and mating balances incorporating qualitative and quantitative traits, accuracies, and the 'variances' of molecular value predictions pertaining to relevant mating protocols.
Your specifics typifying these bulls are certainly in order when mating selections are considered, and refered to as "functional traits". Too often, in our zeal to select against one or perhaps two glaring faults, we lurch into Single Trait Selection Decisions, at the expense of "Balancing" one characteristic with or against others, which may ricochete our breeding intents, and obviate our primary purposes. Therefore, BALANCE of Phenotypic, Genotypic and Functional Trait breeding selections is imperative in order to preclude errors, and enhance the accuracy of EPD's and Molecular Value Predictions.
The observation and interpretation of these factors is the Benchmark of successful beef cattle producers. Chuckie, you seem to have encompassed your Judging abilities into a workable protocol for your cattle BU$INE$$! :tiphat: My only advice here is for you to refrain from being taken "UP - UP - AND AWAY" in a beautiful balloon when tackling the little bull tonight! :hide:
Luv yu' Chuckie! Sleep well!
DOC HARRIS
Thank you for your illuminating response to my apparently ill-conceived interpretation of your post relating to this thread. My purpose in questioning your focus of intent on these two bulls was not done in a critical manner; merely to clarify the motivation of reasoning for your judging commentaries. I have no "rocks to throw", or axes to grind pertaining to your vision through your "Rose Colored Glasses" of illusory perceptions of either or both of these bulls. My perplexity was concomitant with my confusion as to the identifiation of the two bulls in your post - vis-a-vis - which one was which? You have defined that bewilderment to my satisfaction. I hope that you have not had to crack open another Kleenex box!
In regard to the rather extensive "reasons" given for your interpretive judging decisions of the various Phenotypic characteristics and traits of the two bulls, I choose to defer commentary to a more specified criticism encompassing pragmatism and mating balances incorporating qualitative and quantitative traits, accuracies, and the 'variances' of molecular value predictions pertaining to relevant mating protocols.
Your specifics typifying these bulls are certainly in order when mating selections are considered, and refered to as "functional traits". Too often, in our zeal to select against one or perhaps two glaring faults, we lurch into Single Trait Selection Decisions, at the expense of "Balancing" one characteristic with or against others, which may ricochete our breeding intents, and obviate our primary purposes. Therefore, BALANCE of Phenotypic, Genotypic and Functional Trait breeding selections is imperative in order to preclude errors, and enhance the accuracy of EPD's and Molecular Value Predictions.
The observation and interpretation of these factors is the Benchmark of successful beef cattle producers. Chuckie, you seem to have encompassed your Judging abilities into a workable protocol for your cattle BU$INE$$! :tiphat: My only advice here is for you to refrain from being taken "UP - UP - AND AWAY" in a beautiful balloon when tackling the little bull tonight! :hide:
Luv yu' Chuckie! Sleep well!
DOC HARRIS
Come back Doc....come back... come back.... I didn't mean any harm. I didn't. I really didn't!!! I have no more Kleenex, and one roll of toilet paper left.
You know I love you......
You know I love you......
Doc, I have never been mad at you, just have always had fun going back and forth. When you posted to this thread, it just allowed me to answer your question and to fully comment on "so here is one for you to throw stones at.." The Rose Colored glasses pertained to the bulls and the experienced people that know the difference that held back because they did not want to offend Knersie. He cannot take criticism about his own stock, but does not mind criticizing others.
chippie
Well-known member
Chuckie,
You said that the bulls' backs looked like a horse's back. Were you joking because I believe that you are wrong. There is no similarity at all.
I've coached livestock judging teams in the past and currently coach horse judging teams and have judged horse shows (for free to maintain my amateur status).
I don't see what you see in their toplines.
You said that the bulls' backs looked like a horse's back. Were you joking because I believe that you are wrong. There is no similarity at all.
I've coached livestock judging teams in the past and currently coach horse judging teams and have judged horse shows (for free to maintain my amateur status).
I don't see what you see in their toplines.
OP
OP
KNERSIE
Well-known member
chippie":381br0bq said:
More people didn't see it, so don't feel bad.
That same terrible bull sold for good money, was used in 5 registered herds so far, all 5 breeders are very happy with him and his offspring, two of those breeders already ordered their next bulls from me, so I'll just continue breeding them as terrible as I do as my "unsound, straight hocked, coarse shouldered, saddle hollow backed bulls seem to last in the real world and I have happy bull customers. I can live with that, Chuckie....
If we were all on going on a trip on a Greyhound Bus, JW, you know who you would be sitting by.....
chippie
Well-known member
I wanted to add that the bull is not post legged. He has an angle in his hocks. It is difficult to see because how he is standing, but you can see it in his yearling pic (the right rear leg).
This thread has photos of post legged cattle and good info about it.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37647
and Chuckie might find this article helpful about evaluating cattle (An Analysis of Beef Cattle Conformation). It also shows a post legged animal
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/MP-398.pdf
This thread has photos of post legged cattle and good info about it.
http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=37647
and Chuckie might find this article helpful about evaluating cattle (An Analysis of Beef Cattle Conformation). It also shows a post legged animal
http://www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/MP-398.pdf
