I am Googled out!

[Chuckie]

I have tried wording this every way I can on this forum and on Google. Of course, I have not found the answer that I want. So, those that keep up with the records of registered Black Angus, please tell me what you know on this. I am looking for the actual measurements, not EPD numbers. Like, WT 550 lb, HT 42" SC 25cm.

What is an average measurement on a (6 month) weanling bull calf on:
Weight
Height
Scrotal (cm)

Surely someone has measured their bull calves at this age.
Seems like it should be easy to find. If someone were buying a young calf, these actual measurements would be helpful along with the EPD's.
I would not want to buy a young bull with EPD's to be average and his actual measurements were much smaller numbers.
Chuckie

 

[Frankie]

I have tried wording this every way I can on this forum and on Google. Of course, I have not found the answer that I want. So, those that keep up with the records of registered Black Angus, please tell me what you know on this. I am looking for the actual measurements, not EPD numbers. Like, WT 550 lb, HT 42" SC 25cm.

What is an average measurement on a (6 month) weanling bull calf on:
Weight
Height
Scrotal (cm)

Surely someone has measured their bull calves at this age.
Seems like it should be easy to find. If someone were buying a young calf, these actual measurements would be helpful along with the EPD's.
I would not want to buy a young bull with EPD's to be average and his actual measurements were much smaller numbers.
Chuckie

I think you'll have trouble finding these figures. Most purebred breeders weigh for 205 day and 365 day weights. Height and scrotal measurements are taken at 365 days (or thereabout and adjusted to 365 days). Those are industry standard times to measure. I don't know why anyone would learn from measuring a purebred bull at six months.

 

[Tod Dague]

Frame scores on 7 month bull calves

Frame-height
4-42.1"
5-44.1"
6-46.1"
7-48.1"

Don't know if that helps but here you go.

 

[Tod Dague]

Sorry just saw that you were asking about 6 month calves.

Frame-Height
4-40.8"
5-42.9"
6-44.9"
7-46.9"

 

[Chuckie]

Thanks Tod. Even if I knew what a 7 month old measurements usually run, I would take that as an answer.


Frankie, Please explain to me why there is nothing to learn about a 6 month old bull calf when there is a great variation in the heights, weights and scrotal size(all have dropped).
Chuckie

 

[Chuckie]

Tod, where did you find those numbers? I guess I have an enquiring mind and want to know things I shouldn't question.
Thanks.
Chuckie

 

[Chuckie]

It's been so long since I have posted anything, I just can't stop myself.
Here are a few weaned youngsters that were measured for everything. First I will list DOB- BW WW SC HT. There is such a difference in all three, all out of the same bull. So there is something to be learned about each one. But I too have never seen it posted, and surely someone has measured their 6 month old calves when they had them in the chute.
2-24-07...95lb...615...23.5cm...47.25"
3-19-07...95 lb...587...19.3cm...45.75"
4-4-07.....68lb......628...28cm...43"

Where is Doc Harris?????????

Chuckie

 

[KNERSIE]

It's been so long since I have posted anything, I just can't stop myself.
Here are a few weaned youngsters that were measured for everything. First I will list DOB- BW WW SC HT. There is such a difference in all three, all out of the same bull. So there is something to be learned about each one. But I too have never seen it posted, and surely someone has measured their 6 month old calves when they had them in the chute.
2-24-07...95lb...615...23.5cm...47.25"
3-19-07...95 lb...587...19.3cm...45.75"
4-4-07.....68lb......628...28cm...43"

Where is Doc Harris?????????

Chuckie

I am afraid there isn't much to be learned out of your very throrough measurements at 6 months.

From what you have posted all I can safely say is that the third bullcalf is definately earlier maturing and smaller framed. He is a curve bender for BW and WW and if his conformation is good he would be my pick out of the three based on numbers alone. The problem is I would never pick one on numbers alone.

Up till 6 months the dams milk plays such a big role that the height and SC don't mean a lot to me. Most bullcalf's SC will catch up with that of their peers by the time they are 10-12 months old

 

[jscunn]

Chuckie,

Here is a start of course the SC measurement is at a year of age..


http://www.angus.org/sireeval/ahir_ave.html

 

[Chuckie]

KNERSIE, The 1st bull listed, his dam's milk is 29, but the last two are 15, then 11. I never did see the first calf eat out of the feeder.

Thanks jscunn! You are the man!
Chuckie

 

[Frankie]

Thanks Tod. Even if I knew what a 7 month old measurements usually run, I would take that as an answer.


Frankie, Please explain to me why there is nothing to learn about a 6 month old bull calf when there is a great variation in the heights, weights and scrotal size(all have dropped).
Chuckie

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say there is "nothing to learn". KNERSIE pretty much said that and I agree with him. I said most breeders don't measure at that age; industry standards are 205 days and 365 days.

 

[Chuckie]

Frankie, I did not put anything in your mouth, that is just how I read it.

I don't know why anyone would learn....

To me that says from your view, there is nothing to learn.
Just my thoughts..........
But I think there could be something to learn. I have been at sales that have sold bulls at 8 months old, and would like to know a bit more than his dad had coconuts and mom's side had acorns. I want to get some kind of idea what comes with the package.
I also want to look at the calf and know his height. Is he in with a group that is really really large framed or is he a midget or normal? I think this is how the EPD's are manipulated. Put one bull that has good bloodlines, in the average range, in with a group that turned out to be midgets, and you have a bull with higher EPD's.
Or that is how I see it.
Chuckie

 

[Tod Dague]

Tod, where did you find those numbers? I guess I have an enquiring mind and want to know things I shouldn't question.
Thanks.
Chuckie

I got it from a Texas A&M publication. I had the article save on my hard drive so I don't have a link any more. The article is titled Frame Score and Weight.

 

[Chuckie]

Thanks Tod!
When you do a search for something, it goes everywhere.
Angus Association took all measurements on HT and SC and recorded them.
I am going to have to look that article up. Thanks again!
Chuckie

 

[ArmyDoc]

Here's a nice site that explains frame scores and gives the sizes for each at various ages and at maturity. It also gives expected weights for the frame size. But I've been told to take the weights with a grain of salt - ie that they can vary quite a bit for a given frame size dependng on BCS and fleshing ability etc.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

Here's another one form Texas A&M - weights are a little different, so it can give you a range.

http://colorado-tx.tamu.edu/publications/ACF284A.pdf

hope this helps.

 

[Chuckie]

Why not,
It has been a while since I have been on here.
Whose cattle pictures have you posted? That is a pretty place with the rolling pasture land.

I never got into the apology scene. I had rather go to bed without desert or something along those lines. My mother used to make me apologize to my brother when I was a kid, but all it amounted to was a power play by us kids. It let us know who got the most attention from Mom. Then when we got away from her, we rubbed it in that we had to apologize.
Frankie hasn't done anything to me, we all like to mess with each other here. I am not overly sensitive. Don't forget,
Love means never having to say you're sorry. He-he!!

Now if I were driving down the road and hit the neighbors dog by accident, I would go tell them I'm sorry, because I truly would be sorry that it happened.
Take it easy Why Not!
Chuckie

 

[Chuckie]

Thanks Army Doc,
I almost missed your post it being on the end of the 1st page. I clicked on the #2, and thought that is where the last post would be.
I will check out those sites. Learn something new everyday.
Chuckie

 

[KNERSIE]

Frankie hasn't done anything to me, we all like to mess with each other here. I am not overly sensitive.

I see no reason why Frankie should apologise to me either, I am like Chuckie, not overly sensitive.

I don't want to speak on Frankie's behalf, but the way I read what she tried to say is that there is a reason for set industry ages at which weights and measurements are taken. At those ages the outside factors might not play as big a role. There is very little difference in accuracy if WW are taken at 6 or 7 months, but SC will vary greatly within the group if the measurement is taken at 6 months and again at 12 months. I will guarantee that the top 10% SC at 6 months won't be the top 10% again if the measurement is repeated at 12 months.

 

[KNERSIE]

I also want to look at the calf and know his height. Is he in with a group that is really really large framed or is he a midget or normal? I think this is how the EPD's are manipulated. Put one bull that has good bloodlines, in the average range, in with a group that turned out to be midgets, and you have a bull with higher EPD's.
Or that is how I see it.

That is the way in herd ratios used to be manipulated, hence the movement towards EPDs rather than ratios.

I am not saying EPDs can't be cooked or are not being cooked, but because of correlation with other herds that also used the same bull or might have another genetic relation cooking EPDs certainly isn't as easy especially in a large contemporary group where calves out of more than one bull is present.

If you really want to cook EPDs, start taking weights at favourable times and not close to the set ages and you'll be surprized at the difference between the adjusted weight and the actual weight at the set age.

 

[CPL]

Since some commerical producers sell directly at weaning, or around then, would there be anything to gain by evaulating at weaning for someone who is trying to market their bulls to commerical producers? Just curious.