Hybrid Vigor Crosses Explained.

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Caustic Burno

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You just can't use any crossbred cow or retained heifers and expect more gradable pounds across the
scale.

"Heterosis... Hype or Legit?
By Robert Wells
For as long as the beef industry has existed, crossbred commercial cattle operations have made up the lion's share of the beef cattle population, and those "in the know" were telling producers to "clean up their acts." Now, it seems every publication you read or every expert you hear is talking about heterosis. So, you ask, "What's this fancy word 'heterosis,' and can I capitalize on it in my herd?" Well, simply put, heterosis is hybrid vigor. At the Noble Foundation's recent Beef Cattle Female Selection School, livestock specialist Clay Wright defined hybrid vigor as "the added advantage in performance of a crossbred over the average of its purebred parents." So, you say, "Hey, I've been doing things right all along and didn't even know it, right?" Well, not so fast...

There is more to hybrid vigor than just taking a crossbred cow and breeding her with any old bull. Numerous studies have been conducted over the years to look at this very subject. If you want to take full advantage of this phenomenon, there has to be some thought put into the process.

Hybrid vigor is most fully expressed when you use bulls and cows of known ancestry - not just breeding any bull to a cow you pick up from Joe down the road or you bought at the sale barn because the price was right. Work conducted at Texas A&M University by Dr. Jim Sanders has shown a 10 to 20 percentage point increase in calf crop born to F1 cows (a cow which is a first-generation cross between two breeds) when compared to straight-bred cows. The advantage will fall dramatically when F2 (F1 x F1 bred cows) or greater cows are used.

One of the most effective and simplest ways for calves to exhibit hybrid vigor is to use an F1 cow and a pure-blood bull of known performance and ancestry; this is what the Foundation livestock specialists have been suggesting to certain cooperators. Use of a pure-blood bull allows the producer to have some predictability of how the bull's progeny will perform. The prediction is made through the bull's EPDs. In the Foundation publication Crossbreeding Beef Cattle for Western Range Environments, Don Kress and Michael MacNeil stated that an average F1 crossbred cow returns up to $70 more per cow per year than the average straight-bred cow. To arrive at this number, they looked at the various traits (Table 1) that cross breeding affects and the advantage that hybrid vigor afforded to or detracted from the calf.

After studying the table, it becomes obvious that a well-thought-out terminal crossbreeding program can work for many beef producers. Breeding a pure-blood bull to a crossbred cow is one way to maximize hybrid vigor (total heterosis in right-hand column of table). Research has shown, though, that taking crossbred bulls and breeding them with crossbred cows reduces the amount of hybrid vigor that can be expected. This is the reason the Foundation's livestock discipline is recommending an F1-type cow bred to a straight-bred bull of known performance data (EPDs) and ancestry.

It does not matter if you are selling your calves at weaning, as yearlings or retaining ownership through the feedlot; you cannot afford to give up the advantages that hybrid vigor will convey to your bottom line "
 
"The advantage will fall dramatically..."

Whats dramatically? Did they provide a percentage? Got a link to the story so I can see the charts/graphs/tables?

Thanks
 
Jabes0623":1vt6m1no said:
"The advantage will fall dramatically..."

Whats dramatically? Did they provide a percentage? Got a link to the story so I can see the charts/graphs/tables?

Thanks
http://www.noble.org/ag/livestock/heterosis/
Another one with Brahman factor.
http://msucares.com/livestock/beef/geneticslunch4.pdf
It goes on and on.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/agricultur ... cattle.pdf

Free pounds if properly managed.
Lots of data on the subject
off the top of my head you loose 14% using a 3 way cross cow versus an F-1
it got worse on weaning pounds the more mongrel the cow.
I don't remember the exact numbers for the mongrel cow.
 
Caustic Burno":yjjdx85v said:
The Foundation publication....stated that an average F1 crossbred cow returns up to $70 more per cow per year than the average (Purebred) straight-bred cow. This is the reason the Foundation's livestock discipline is recommending an F1-type cow bred to a straight-bred (Purebred) bull of known performance data (EPDs) and ancestry.
Let me state I fully agree F1s make the best females. However, allow me to play the devil's advocate.

Notice it's worded up to and does not give the average. Any study worth its' salt uses the average, not just the high end.
So we know this is a sales pitch, bending over backwards to cherry pick in favor of F1s.
In addition they are only comparing a F1 cow to a purebred or straight bred cow.
$70 per cow per year is the maximum expected return. Let's give them the benefit of doubt and say a $50 average.

Joe Blow down the street has a multi cross herd that would be at a disadvantage to F1s but a slight advantage vs a pure herd.
Assume I have 100K to buy cows and
Joe Blow (or his cousin Susie Sux) is willing to sell me these unknown but acceptable replacement quality cows.
Buying from Joe gives me more cows for 100K than I can buy F1s with my 100k.
At an average return of $40 more per head per year
and keeping in mind the time value of money and that when keeping replacements from F1s the hybrid vigor drops off dramatically.

How much more per head can I afford to pay for the F1s?
 
Butch kinda beat me but I already typed it up.. :tiphat:


Good info and I believe it to be true.
My herd is a hodgepodge of groups that I bought when I had the money or traded for here in their.mostly mongrels and unknowns. But a few purebreds and known crossbred.
Use registered Angus bulls.
The crosses definitely outperform the pure Angus in growth. Some brimmer or Hereford in the mix makes for a much better keeping cows in our climate. 70 dollars may be a conservative figure.
What would be interesting to me is were does the added cost of f1 herd meet with the added value. I'm a post pounder :cboy: not a numbers guy.
A good f1 Braford short bred hiefer can still easily fetch 3000+

A mongrel short bred hiefer right now is market. 1200?
Now I can see were the guy breeding and selling the f1 heifers is winning.
But on the commercial end , how long to regain the initial investment.?
 
I should probably pay more attention to the research, but don't. I personally think a British/continental/Brahman cross maxamizes vigor.
 
fenceman":246gb6n5 said:
A good f1 Braford short bred heifer can still easily fetch 3000+
A mongrel short bred heifer right now is market. 1200?
Now I can see were the guy breeding and selling the f1 heifers is winning.
But on the commercial end , how long to regain the initial investment?
3000 - 1200 = 1800
Assuming $72 added pure profit per cow per year (and forgetting about interest and time value of money ect)
1800 divided by 72 = a mere 25 years to break even vs the mongrel short bred heifer
at $50 per cow per year = 36 years
$100 would = 18 years to break even
 
I've found that Heinz 7 cows outperform straightbred cows in most cases, especially when it comes to raising calves. The key is using a purebred bull on the mongrel cows to get some hybrid vigor(obviously not maximum hybrid vigor) and they'll outperform out straight purebred calves.
 
The problem with F1's is you need to buy them, or maintain a PB herd as well as your commercial herd.. if you're really big it can pay and be practical since you're probably running 2 or more herds anyhow.. Then you can use a high gaining, higher BW bull on the F1's to really get the meat, but you're losing out on another end of it because you have to maintain a herd of at least 30-40% of your commercial herd (which wean lighter calves) to keep replacements from (if you want to have the replacement heifers for a replacement rate of 15-20%, and that's assuming all the heifers you get are of good enough quality).

I
 
Muddy":2qjmrtao said:
I've found that Heinz 7 cows outperform straightbred cows in most cases, especially when it comes to raising calves. The key is using a purebred bull on the mongrel cows to get some hybrid vigor(obviously not maximum hybrid vigor) and they'll outperform out straight purebred calves.

I agree with that especially if there is Brimmer in the woodpile when crossing with a good Hereford or
Angus.
The point is your not always doing yourself any favors retaining and don't get pasture blind.
Cost of growing out loss of income on the dam and reduced weaning weights
adds up to a lot of nickels over time.
 
Son of Butch":rjhk5g1q said:
fenceman":rjhk5g1q said:
A good f1 Braford short bred heifer can still easily fetch 3000+
A mongrel short bred heifer right now is market. 1200?
Now I can see were the guy breeding and selling the f1 heifers is winning.
But on the commercial end , how long to regain the initial investment?
3000 - 1200 = 1800
Assuming $72 added pure profit per cow per year (and forgetting about interest and time value of money ect)
1800 divided by 72 = a mere 25 years to break even vs the mongrel short bred heifer
at $50 per cow per year = 36 years
$100 would = 18 years to break even

The big bang you left off is the longevity and production of the F-1.
If it is a F-1 Tiger very common to produce into their 20's that is a huge factor
when it comes to replacements.
During the 2011 drought the ones I culled were late teens to early 20's.
The ones I hauled for my neighbor were 20 to 25 still had good teeth and producing a calf every 12 months.
All of his toothed 7 except one was SS when they went through barn.
You bought or raised two and I am still on one.
 
Muddy":2lh6kl71 said:
Problem is that F1 tigerstripes won't work in cold climates.

That is true but Brangus will one of the girls I hauled in 2011 was Brangus and 21.
She was still producing a calf every 12 months.
Hereford X Brangus make a fine heavy calf that will mash the scales and bring a premium.

Forgot to add anytime you can mix Hereford and Brahman genetics the hybrid vigor is enormous.
 
TennesseeTuxedo":38km82ph said:
I've been building some baldy heifers using Hereford X Angus and Angus X Hereford. Leaning towards running a Charolais bull on their second calves forward.


Great cross and should make some really fine heavy calves out of a Char.
That is the way to get the most bang IMO is a 3 way cross calf.
 
Caustic Burno":8inco9of said:
TennesseeTuxedo":8inco9of said:
I've been building some baldy heifers using Hereford X Angus and Angus X Hereford. Leaning towards running a Charolais bull on their second calves forward.


Great cross and should make some really fine heavy calves out of a Char.
That is the way to get the most bang IMO is a 3 way cross calf.

Might be that I stole the idea from you in 2012. :D
 
Caustic Burno":136mjaf4 said:
Son of Butch":136mjaf4 said:
fenceman":136mjaf4 said:
A good f1 Braford short bred heifer can still easily fetch 3000+
A mongrel short bred heifer right now is market. 1200?
Now I can see were the guy breeding and selling the f1 heifers is winning.
But on the commercial end , how long to regain the initial investment?
3000 - 1200 = 1800
Assuming $72 added pure profit per cow per year (and forgetting about interest and time value of money ect)
1800 divided by 72 = a mere 25 years to break even vs the mongrel short bred heifer
at $50 per cow per year = 36 years
$100 would = 18 years to break even

The big bang you left off is the longevity and production of the F-1.
If it is a F-1 Tiger very common to produce into their 20's that is a huge factor
You bought or raised two and I am still on one.
As Devil's advocate...I didn't leave out big bang production which author states is max of $70.
Let's run the 2-1 numbers to include longevity.
1. $1200 heinz 57 bred heifer
2. 1230 lb salvage value at 69 cents pound slaughter = $850
3. $1200 for 2nd heinz 57 bred heifer
1200 + 1200 = 2400 - 850 s.v. of 1st cow = $1550 total investment for 2
3000 - 1550 = $1450

How long does it take to regain the additional $1450 invested?
$3,000 cow added production per year $85 21% more than the $70 which the author states is the maximum.
1450 divided by 85 = 17 years to Break Even vs heinz 57 bred heifer in very very best case scenario.

Clearly paying $1800 more per head for the F1 is not worth it.
Which brings me back to my original question.
How much more per head can I afford to pay for the F1 bred heifer?
 
Why even try to help your brother out with science backed data that has been researched since 1960.
Back 40 cattle are not going to cut it in the future and as much as the registered breeder thinks
he doesn't drive the industry. The commercial cattleman drives the industry we need to produce the most
gradable pounds for our customer. Paper doesn't mash the scales.
I just don't feel good enough to debate

Sorry Butch you bring up valid points maybe in the morning I will feel
like playing again.
 
Muddy":3ujalbql said:
Problem is that F1 tigerstripes won't work in cold climates.
What F1 works in a cold climate?
For what it's worth the pen I was watching the other day had a smoke colored calf that was head and shoulders above the others. I suppose it had some Charlois in it and may have been a wee bit older( maybe not) but was a good solid looking booger. Sure would have liked to bought some more of the same type.
 
Kingfisher":3om7ioa9 said:
Muddy":3om7ioa9 said:
Problem is that F1 tigerstripes won't work in cold climates.
What F1 works in a cold climate?
For what it's worth the pen I was watching the other day had a smoke colored calf that was head and shoulders above the others. I suppose it had some Charlois in it and may have been a wee bit older( maybe not) but was a good solid looking booger. Sure would have liked to bought some more of the same type.
F1 black baldies are common F1s in most areas, but they are usually bred back to black Angus for first calf then bred them to black continental/composite or Charolais depends on what colors the sale barn wants. Backcrossing isn't uncommon in some areas.
 

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