How old is too old for a recip?

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shadyhollownj

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So I have ten embryos I have to implant this spring. Some I'm not worried about as far as calving ease and BW. Some I want to use on older cows. Two questions. First on an Embryo how do you consider the calving ease? By the bull or the female or the average of both? Also how old is too old. I have a few ten year old cows that have no problem milking, udder quality or calving. Are they to old or should I use some 3 or 4 year olds that have better genetics therefore I would rather AI them and not use them as recips. Thanks Mike.
 

KNERSIE

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Use the most fertile cows you can get your hands on, as long as they can calve and raise the calf. I wouldn't use old cows myself though.
 

robert

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we've used 10 yr old cows before no problem, in fact an 11 yr old calved an embryo calf for us last night, no problem. As Knersie said, fertility is key, milk production good enough.
 
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shadyhollownj

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The cows I would use generally take the first time AI so I would say they are ok fertility wise. That is what I would base my fertility off of. I have a few three year olds that calved for the first time last month. Just worked out that when I bought them at a sale that they would have been bred to late for me so I held them. They all calved with no help and have plenty of milk. Two are progress daughters and one is a top secret. I mean I think they would be ok as a four year old with an embryo calf with a 0 CE and 5 BW Or am I wrong. The sires of the embryos are About Time, Quantum, and Revolution.
 

R V

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We have a 12 year old that is carrying an embryo currently and suspect the 10 year olds will be fine if they are in good flesh. The oldest that I have calved with an embryo was at 14 years of age and it was her last calf. Personally, I haven't had much luck in our area with heifers with their first or second calf and settling with embryos. In fact, I have quit using them, but am considering early weaning on a group next year and then implanting. It probably depends on your feed situation and type of cows as I have a friend in Iowa that has good pregnancy rates on the same type of heifers that I avoid, but he avoids the older cows.
 

robert

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as for CED my rule of thumb when putting eggs in is would I use the sire on a heifer? If the answer is no then I put those eggs in cows only, if the answer is yes then I'll use yearling heifers for those eggs. For the most part embryo's we put in are out of our own cows that have demonstrated their usefulness to our system and sired by bulls of our own breeding or which we have used successfully in the past, in many cases replicating previous good matings.
 

Amo

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Just scrolling through here. Im guessing your using Hereford. Seen revulation and I think about time is Hereford. I used Revulation last year on heiffers and cows just AI. Had great success. Was a little worried when his epd's came out for 2012. I got along great calving. Used him again this year. Way bigger. Espceially the bull calves. 3 pulls and a c-section on the heiffers. My own replacements both years, not purchased.

I know thats not what your asking about but seen you were talking about bw as well, so just thought Id give ya a heads up!
 
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shadyhollownj

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I'm not exactly following. I see his epds got better this year at least based on genex website. I doubt the difficulty was the revolution semen. With that many problems I would think maybe the feed or hay had a little too much protein this year. The Bw question was more for which Bw to use on a purchased embryo. Thanks for the input though. Revolutions always came pretty easy for me.
 

R V

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Since the birth weight of the embryo isn't influenced by the recip, I prefer to use cows as recips. Experience with the donor cow and the bulls you choose is the best predictor. If you don't know much about them yet, it is safer to go with cows.
 

KNERSIE

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R V":3tstwct0 said:
Since the birth weight of the embryo isn't influenced by the recip, I prefer to use cows as recips. Experience with the donor cow and the bulls you choose is the best predictor. If you don't know much about them yet, it is safer to go with cows.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think provide the environment for the embryo to grow in?
 
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shadyhollownj

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The younger cows I will use will be 2nd calvers but they will be 3.5-4 years old. I would consider those cows in my opinion. I would not even be considering heifers. I dont think I would even use heifers if they were homegrown embryos and not purchased. Thanks guys.
 

robert

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shadyhollownj":3evc4bma said:
The younger cows I will use will be 2nd calvers but they will be 3.5-4 years old. I would consider those cows in my opinion. I would not even be considering heifers. I dont think I would even use heifers if they were homegrown embryos and not purchased. Thanks guys.

So, by that rationale how could you promote, for example, calving ease if your own genetics are incapable of calving naturally to your own genetics?
 
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shadyhollownj

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You yourself said if the sire isnt a heifer sire than only use them on cows. If i was at it for a long time which I'm not and had a consistent group of cows maybe my thoughts would be different but as of right now I would not use a heifer as a recip. Its not that my heifers are incapable its just the fact that a cow is more predictable especially with a spendy embryo. I get what your saying but I just dont think I would ever do it.
 

R V

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KNERSIE":30sgv3q1 said:
R V":30sgv3q1 said:
Since the birth weight of the embryo isn't influenced by the recip, I prefer to use cows as recips. Experience with the donor cow and the bulls you choose is the best predictor. If you don't know much about them yet, it is safer to go with cows.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think provide the environment for the embryo to grow in?

:) I hadn't noticed that I left out a word. It should have been "Since the birth weight of the embryo isn't genetically influenced by the recip...."
 

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