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How much is to much BW

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redfornow

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I was just taking a look around and found this bull.... http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... &11=5D525C

If the link works you will see an Act BW of 115

How much is to much? Were do you all call it?

In my reg herd anything 20% above average for that year inside my herd is cut, also anything above 95 act BW is cut...

How do you all do it? Not saying this is right and I can tell you I cut a couple this year that would have been average in my herd early because they beat the 95 right off the bat. We are in the third year of a light drought and second year of a moderate to heavy drought combined with a hard wet winter my BW's went up 12-15 lbs. Anyhow, the numbers got me to thinking maybe I am to low? Heck 115 is to HIGH I would never let a bull that high keep its nuts.
Just cant do it...

Am I being to conservative? Is there such a thing?
 

Frankie

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You have to make the decision about what's too big. But we went to a Brangus auction a while ago and buyers weren't the least bit interested in two bulls that had actual BWs of 100 lbs or more. I've seen really good looking, high testing Angus bulls sell below the average price of the sale. I feel like it was because their own BW was over 100 lbs.

Guess my point is: if you're in the business of selling bulls to commercial cattle producers, ask them what too big is. I pay more attention to EPDs than actuals, but buyers are all different.
 

Ned Jr.

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I figured you had to be reading his ratio but you weren't. :shock: They seem to be almost bragging about the BW.

No way would I keep a 115 lb BW calf a bull. I cut anything over 100 lb BW.
 

KNERSIE

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Guess my point is: if you're in the business of selling bulls to commercial cattle producers, ask them what too big is.

Don't wait till the feedback tell you where too big is....

There are more reasons than CAB why angus outsell herefords in the commercial bul market.
 
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redfornow

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Ned Jr.":2caxgc7s said:
I figured you had to be reading his ratio but you weren't. :shock: They seem to be almost bragging about the BW.

No way would I keep a 115 lb BW calf a bull. I cut anything over 100 lb BW.


Ned, I thought it had to be ratio's also...
But it looks like a straight 115, little high for me.
 
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redfornow

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KNERSIE":8qotkrco said:
Guess my point is: if you're in the business of selling bulls to commercial cattle producers, ask them what too big is.

Don't wait till the feedback tell you where too big is....

There are more reasons than CAB why angus outsell herefords in the commercial bul market.

Yep, we have to get our BW's down here in the states. The more 40 head and under farmers there are the more guys are gonna want bulls that a heifer can lay down and have it on its own. Cant run home and check every 2 hours from the factory. I think its always been that way? But we are getting ready to see CE and BW become a big deal.

Still 115? Dear God? By the way I have no relationship good or bad just the BW got me to thinking about my own cattle and how I thought BW had been up this year?
 

SRBeef

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Ned Jr.":2bsfwqyo said:
I figured you had to be reading his ratio but you weren't. :shock: They seem to be almost bragging about the BW.

No way would I keep a 115 lb BW calf a bull. I cut anything over 100 lb BW.

Did you also notice in the link that this 115 bw bull's mother "died" this spring and he was weaned at 5 mo...?

At least they were honest enough to report this stuff. They are asking "only" 1500. but at times it's good to remember that a bad cow is one bad calf but a bad bull is 1/2 of your herd.
 

Nesikep

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would be nice to get details on the cause of the mother's death.. if she broke a leg on ice, etc

I don't think you'd regret staying away from a bull with that high a BW though.. if you're on a budget, maybe look for an older bull (semen test it!) and go with that for a while... you can get a champion bull for $2000 if you look around and get a bit an older one...

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but a bulls genetics don't change as he get older
 

LFF

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I was going to stay out of this , but could not.

The reason someone would want one that big can be explained with few words.

SHOWCATTLE BREEDERS
 

Herefords.US

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LFF":345s0qy0 said:
The reason someone would want one that big can be explained with few words.

SHOWCATTLE BREEDERS

I don't know, I don't think show cattle breeders would have too much luck showing dead calves. I know that an actual BW that high would have been even unusual for Remitall's operation in Canada, based on the data I've looked at.

Rather than trust EPDs, I would tend to distrust them even more in this bull's case. Based on his performance pedigree, he appears to be the only animal in his "peer" group- BW index 100%, WW index 100%. Thank goodness they disclosed the actual BW or no one would know.

He definitely should have ended up as a steer, rather than a bull for sale.

George
 

CPL

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George, I think the reason why he is the only one in the cont. group is because he may have been the only Hereford. If memory serves me correct DL is a Black Hereford outfit. However, Keep in my the calf "essentially" bred by star lake. To me it looks like they bought the cow bred in their sale. There is a picture out there of this calf.

Changing the subject, 115 is too big. I would see somewhere between 75-90 as acceptable. Shape of the calf is also important. But I agree with knersie, sell one calf to a commerical bull buyer that he has to pull and/or dies at birth and your done.
 

Avalon

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LFF":3m475att said:
I was going to stay out of this , but could not.

The reason someone would want one that big can be explained with few words.

SHOWCATTLE BREEDERS

Oh contrare. I want cattle that are alive at parturition first and foremost. Secondly I want cattle that wean off heavy (just like the commercial cattleman). Being that most of my cattle are sold as commercial seed stock (very few go into the show ring). I raise what my market wants. That would be Bulls with moderate birth weights from 75-85 lbs. Then explosive weaning weights.

More important. may we all remember the one whose birth we celebrate! :nod:
 

greenwillowhereford II

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The cutoff point for me is 100#, and I'm leary of that.
In spite of arguments to the contrary, at least in the Hereford realm, all you have to do is look at the actual and EPD BW numbers of the last 20 champions, and then at the breed average, and you will find that the showring bred cattle do have heavier BW.

I know it seems that everyone's pastures are just loaded with those curve benders that calve at 75 pounds, and wean at 750, but USUALLY the heavier BW calf will weigh more at weaning if he survives being born. Judges at shows ARE influenced by weight per day of age..........why do you think that there is so much lying about birth dates? Don't tell me there isn't; I've been around enough to know. And I speak to the club calf scenario specifically.

Hope I didn't offend anyone....
 

HOSS

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redfornow":wrqycepa said:
KNERSIE":wrqycepa said:
Guess my point is: if you're in the business of selling bulls to commercial cattle producers, ask them what too big is.

Don't wait till the feedback tell you where too big is....

There are more reasons than CAB why angus outsell herefords in the commercial bul market.

Yep, we have to get our BW's down here in the states. The more 40 head and under farmers there are the more guys are gonna want bulls that a heifer can lay down and have it on its own. Cant run home and check every 2 hours from the factory. I think its always been that way? But we are getting ready to see CE and BW become a big deal.

Still 115? Dear God? By the way I have no relationship good or bad just the BW got me to thinking about my own cattle and how I thought BW had been up this year?

I fit this profile exactly. I want my calves to be between 75 to 85 pounds. No heavier. I want them to wean at 550+ lbs. at 180 days. I want my heifers to have calves on their own unassisted. So far I have gotten my wishes and have not had to pull a calf yet.

When bull shopping I pay attention to the CE, BW epd's as well as actual bull birth weight. I also pay attention to how the bull is built. The performance epd's are secondary because of my situation.
 

Elder Statesman

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When buying herd bulls, I try to stay at 90lbs. or below. I will tolerate low 90's if everything else is excellent.

I will keep a few bulls to sell that have 95 lb. birthweights because I have customers who want them and will buy them because of their growth or carcass qualities. Most of the bulls I sell are in the 80-90 lb. range. I even kept a bull I raised with a 100 lb. birthweight to put on my commercial cows because he had good carcass ultrasound data and didn't have any problems. He was a rare exception. I usually cut any bull calf over 95 lbs.

As for my cows, I like for their calves to weigh in 80 to low 90's range, heifers in the 75-low 80's range. With a normal presentation, a good cow or heifer shouldn't have any problems with those birthweights. I don't want any 60 lb. "puppies".

As for the 115 lb. bw bull mentioned in the post, I can see where the birthweight plays in and why I would believe the EPD's when I look on the cow side. I personally know several breeders who have used P606 and Pure Gold and had some birthweight issues. This cow has them both in her pedigree. I'm sure there are some on here that will argue about those bulls, but when you look at their EPDs, progeny ratios, and the number of progeny recorded, the BW epd's are probably pretty accurate.
 

SRBeef

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Nesikep":2mxacmn7 said:
would be nice to get details on the cause of the mother's death.. if she broke a leg on ice, etc

I really don't care why she died.

Just add: cow dies at 5 mos + 115 bw = steer & hamburger
 

Willow Springs

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How many of you who are not seed stock producers are actually weighing your calves?? As a bull seller I get this all the time; they won't buy a bull with a 95 lb or 100 lb birthweight bull because their cows have 85 lb calves. Then you ask what type of cows they have and if they are weighing. Response; oh my cows are charolais or simmy cross and I don't weigh the calves but I can tell by looking at them what they weigh. The cows are probably 1500 lb and having 100 lb calves every year. A big angus or hereford cow will do the same; I've had them small BW EPD or not.

How big is too big? Depends on how big your cows are. A general rule is that cows should be able to calve about 7% of their bodyweight without a problem. If I have 1500 lb cows I want 100 lb calves (provided they're not slow at birth) because those bigger calves just grow faster and bigger, and I need that extra growth to pay for that big cow. Those small calves just don't grow as fast. Now I know I'm going to get a bunch of responses saying well I had a cow that did this and that, but the truth is, as a general rule, those big ones win on performance. If I have 1300 lb cows then the calves should only be 85 lbs.
 

dun

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Cow or heifer I look for anything up to 85-87 pounds for a calfs BW. I prefer 70-75, just seems if the calf is that little bit smaller and there is a presentation problem that's it's easier for the cow to have the calf or for me to reach in and manipulate it.
 

KNERSIE

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dun":1ulaaxnl said:
Cow or heifer I look for anything up to 85-87 pounds for a calfs BW. I prefer 70-75, just seems if the calf is that little bit smaller and there is a presentation problem that's it's easier for the cow to have the calf or for me to reach in and manipulate it.

Not even mentioning how many fewer presentation problems you'll have with smaller calves.
 

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