How much are red baldies worth?

[3waycross]

For the record Frankie:

I have absolutely NOTHING against Black Angus or those who raise them. I am actually planning on using some Blk Angus semen this year on a couple of my Gelbvieh cows.

What I detest is Bu--sh--. It's insulting to me and almost everyone on this forum some of the bs that gets disseminated re, the Blk Angus breed and CAB in general. I applaud the marketing genius it took to invent CAB and the work that goes into promoting it in general. Anything that puts beef in the forefront is a good thing. Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:

 

[Frankie]

[ Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:[/quote]

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:

 

[Frankie]

The AAA calls the red gene a Class II genetic defect because it doesn't affect the animal's ability to grow, breed, etc.

My guess is that "etc" also includes all those other magnificent traits that make ANGUS the superior breed that YOU and the rest of the Angus world claim them to be.

We can get the "guessing" out of the way. AAA reasoning for calling the Red Factor a Class II defect:

Red Coat color is a genetic factor monitored by the American Angus Assn. It is monitored because it is caused by a simple recessive gene and because red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the American Angus Assn.
Red Color has no effect on the reproduction, growth or beef-producing ability of the animal.

I think it's been pretty well documented on this board that across the country, black calves outsell similar quality calves of other colors. And I've never suggested that quality calves only come in black.

Frankie you are hoisted on your own petard. You have just admited there is no difference other than hide color between RED ANGUS and BLACK ANGUS

Must be about time to lock this one up!

As far as I know there's no such breed as BLACK ANGUS. And, no, I never said there was no difference between Red Angus and Angus. The Angus breed has millions more data records on file, hundreds more bulls tested, calves weighed, bulls scanned, actual carcass data, than any other breed. And that's what makes Angus the most used breed in the US. Buyers use the coat color to identify Angus influence.

 

[Tod Dague]

[ Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:[/quote]Yes you can want to try again?

 

[Tod Dague]

The AAA calls the red gene a Class II genetic defect because it doesn't affect the animal's ability to grow, breed, etc.

My guess is that "etc" also includes all those other magnificent traits that make ANGUS the superior breed that YOU and the rest of the Angus world claim them to be.

We can get the "guessing" out of the way. AAA reasoning for calling the Red Factor a Class II defect:

Red Coat color is a genetic factor monitored by the American Angus Assn. It is monitored because it is caused by a simple recessive gene and because red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the American Angus Assn.
Red Color has no effect on the reproduction, growth or beef-producing ability of the animal.

I think it's been pretty well documented on this board that across the country, black calves outsell similar quality calves of other colors. And I've never suggested that quality calves only come in black.

Frankie you are hoisted on your own petard. You have just admited there is no difference other than hide color between RED ANGUS and BLACK ANGUS

Must be about time to lock this one up!

As far as I know there's no such breed as BLACK ANGUS. And, no, I never said there was no difference between Red Angus and Angus. The Angus breed has millions more data records on file, hundreds more bulls tested, calves weighed, bulls scanned, actual carcass data, than any other breed. And that's what makes Angus the most used breed in the US. Buyers use the coat color to identify Angus influence.

True there is more data on the blacks but the blacks pick and choose what data is included where as the reds include all the data, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
BTW The Red Angus Association has included the blacks that have been used in the Red Angus THR program into the EPD search engine if anyone is interested.

 

[Frankie]

[ Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:

Yes you can want to try again?

Not if they're black Angus parents. No real Angus should carry the red gene.

Even if they're commercial, black cattle, yes, I can make the argument that there will be a difference between a black calf and a red calf born to the same parents. Most of us have bothers and sisters. Are we all the same? No. Some are taller, some are smarter, some just think they're smarter , some are athletic, some are nerds. Cows and bulls don't have the same calf with every breeding. It will depend on your definition of the best calf. If you think the calf that brings you the most money at the sale barn is best, then probably the black one is "best." If you like to look at red cattle, then the red one might be "best" in your eye. I think most of us let the buyers sort our the "best" animal when they bid.

Angus breeders report all the data they want to report. Here we report everything as do many other breeders. Some don't report anything, and I think they're making a mistake. If they don't report data on their heifer's calves, those calves won't have EPDs. Angus without EPDs are sold at commercial cattle prices in purebred sales that I've attended. So it's in the breeder's best interest to report the data into the AHIR program.

Come on, TOD, you know that there's nothing really to force Red Angus people to report ALL their data. Like any other breed, they can claim a calf died or lie about weights or anything else they want to manipulate the data. Unless the Red Angus Assn has someone out weighing every calf, watching every breeding, your data is no better than my data....and I got a lot more.

Several breeds include Angus in their breeding programs. Why not Red Angus?

 

[dun]

No real Angus should carry the red gene.

So none of these are "real" angus?
http://www.angus.org/pubs/defects_anm_l ... 524C&q2=21

 

[3waycross]

[ Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:[/quote]

Want to read your reply again? What do you get out of two blk parents, Green?

BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBS

AND BS


PS One other thing I apologize for my Faux Paus regarding "BLACK" Angus. It should have read "REAL" Angus
as opposed to RED Angus

 

[Frankie]

[ Buttttttttt saying that a red calf out of two blk parents is somehow genetically inferior to a blk calf out of the same parents is just plain silly, all the other genetic markers besides hide color still exist and to ask inteligent informed people here to believe otherwise is just plain nuts. Please explain to me how a Tootsie Roll in a red package is different than one in a blk package.

Well that's my rant for the day, I'm done.

Lock er down :cowboy:

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:

Want to read your reply again? What do you get out of two blk parents, Green?

BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBS

AND BS


PS One other thing I apologize for my Faux Paus regarding "BLACK" Angus. It should have read "REAL" Angus
as opposed to RED Angus[/quote]

Two black parents carrying the black gene only (as Angus do) will produce black calves. In a commercial pair, if both of them were also carrying a red gene, they MIGHT get a red calf. But each calf will be different and testimony from many people on this board tell me that similar black calves sell better than red calves. Call BS all you want; the buyer makes the final call.

Apology accepted. The actual term for black Angus is Angus. Red Angus are red.

 

[Frankie]

No real Angus should carry the red gene.

So none of these are "real" angus?
http://www.angus.org/pubs/defects_anm_l ... 524C&q2=21

As a registered breeder, if their calves can't be registered, it's a moot point whether they're "real" Angus or not.

 

[novatech]

And that's what makes Angus the most used breed in the US. Buyers use the coat color to identify Angus influence.

Sorry I have to disagree, I think it may have been the marketing.
Only a third of the pure Angus will meet the standards of their branded beef program. This tells me that 2/3's have to come from some other color that just happened to be 51% black. Given the low qualifying number it seems as though the red Angus should not have to difficult a time qualifying if the butcher could not tell the difference. But then we know he can. :roll:
Wonder if we could start breeding black Jersey? With their marbling they should qualify.
Having said this I do applaud the fact that so many Angus breeders are using AI in the effort to develop a better breed.
Just need to get rid of those breeding for name dropper sales, and that goes with any breed.

 

[dun]

No real Angus should carry the red gene.

So none of these are "real" angus?
http://www.angus.org/pubs/defects_anm_l ... 524C&q2=21

As a registered breeder, if their calves can't be registered, it's a moot point whether they're "real" Angus or not.

So none of their calves can be registered just because they carry the red gene. That would be the only way they wouldn;t be "real" angus is if none of their calves were registerable.

 

[hillsdown]

In my area the last 3-4 years baldies are taking the premium and blk Angus is not top dog anymore. Since 99% of the buyers are American that may say a lot to what the trend is moving to.

As for Angus I have a question which I am sure has been brought up many times before but, if you can't have red in the pedigree how come you can register an animal that has white in the background (most likely Holstein). I went to a very high end bull sale last spring, the herd belongs to a well known hockey family that have been raising Angus for ever . At least 70% of their purebred registered bulls had white on their bellies. The old timer that I went with would not buy any because of this..

Explanations ??

 

[KNERSIE]

White on the underline is acceptable as long as its behind the navel. Some of the very old Aberdeen Angus photos I've seen also had some white there. I don't say that no one ever tainted bloodlines in order to make a quick direction change, but the white doesn't neccesarily mean that there was some help from outside.

 

[VanC]

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype.

I think it's been pretty well documented on this board that across the country, black calves outsell similar quality calves of other colors. And I've never suggested that quality calves only come in black.

Well, which is it? Does black outsell red because blacks hang better carcasses, or because marketing has given people that perception? You're chasing you're tail.

 

[hillsdown]

I was just doing some reading from one of my breed encyclopedias..

At Kinnaird castle the family of Charles Carnegie bred polled Angus from 1805 on and reported a pure red cow. In this same book, the authors discuss observations made in 1882:"In most herds one or two red calves had appeared , but a brindled calf was rarely dropped. But while these colors are unpopular ,it should be remembered that they do not denote impurity

."

Even though the UK and the rest of the world the red Angus is included in Angus herd books, in 1917 the American Aberdeen Angus Herdbook barred from registration cattle that were red. All Angus breeders knew of red calves ,but most breeders of blacks considered the reds "throwbacks" and the red color was viewed as a genetic defect.

Hmm sounds more like politics than anything else ... :roll:

 

[angus9259]

Actually, I mispoke on my original response. I don't get docked 10% for red, I get a 10% BONUS for black! :lol2:

He's not screwing me, he's being generous!

 

[hillsdown]

White on the underline is acceptable as long as its behind the navel. Some of the very old Aberdeen Angus photos I've seen also had some white there. I don't say that no one ever tainted bloodlines in order to make a quick direction change, but the white doesn't neccesarily mean that there was some help from outside.

Could be but one has to wonder how many times ole Betsy didn't get bred by the Holstein bull so she was put in with the Angus bull , she had a heifer who was bred back to an Angus bull then calved and had a heifer ect., etc, etc,,,

If it happens now I am more than positive it happened then..

 

[VanC]

Sigh. You can't get a black calf out of two black parents. Want to try again. :lol:

I know this had to be a misprint. What were you trying to say?

Two black parents carrying the black gene only (as Angus do) will produce black calves. In a commercial pair, if both of them were also carrying a red gene, they MIGHT get a red calf.

Two black animals carrying the red gene have a 25% chance of producing a red calf. This applies to registered animals, not just commercial as you implied.

But each calf will be different and testimony from many people on this board tell me that similar black calves sell better than red calves.

The issue is not whether black calves sell better than reds. We all know that. The issue is why? Do black calves hang better carcasses, or has marketing (or hype as Bez calls it) given people the perception that they do?

And, no, I never said there was no difference between Red Angus and Angus. The Angus breed has millions more data records on file, hundreds more bulls tested, calves weighed, bulls scanned, actual carcass data, than any other breed. And that's what makes Angus the most used breed in the US.

Again, the issue isn't which breed association is better, but whether black animals hang better carcasses than red ones. Do they or don't they?

No real Angus should carry the red gene.

As a registered breeder, if their calves can't be registered, it's a moot point whether they're "real" Angus or not.

So because you choose not to use bulls that carry the red factor, they're not real? Yes, their red calves may not be registerable, but the black ones are. In fact, the carriers themselves are registerable if they came from registered parents, which also had to come from registered parents with the red gene, and so on, and so on. If none of those animals are real, what are they?

We can get the "guessing" out of the way. AAA reasoning for calling the Red Factor a Class II defect:

Red Coat color is a genetic factor monitored by the American Angus Assn. It is monitored because it is caused by a simple recessive gene and because red calves are not eligible for registration under the rules of the American Angus Assn.
Red Color has no effect on the reproduction, growth or beef-producing ability of the animal.

Well, there you have it folks, straight from the American Angus Association themselves. Sure, there are differences between breeds, and even between animals of the same breed, but coat color is not a factor. It's all about perception.

 

[TB-Herefords]

Lee Leachman said in one of his seminars " there will be no heritosis(could be spelled wrong) advantage on crossing red angus and black because the genetics are too close." hewent on to say it takes centuries to develop a breed not decades.