How much are red baldies worth?

Help Support CattleToday:

brandonm_13

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
632
Reaction score
3
Location
Tennessee
Just like most people that have run the angus hereford cross, you will come along with a red baldy from time to time. I was just curious if you have noticed much of a price difference over the years. Does that price difference seem to fluctuate, or can you count on a relative price per pound cut?
 

angus9259

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
2,843
Reaction score
2
Location
Michigan
brandonm_13":3q9f8lbw said:
Just like most people that have run the angus hereford cross, you will come along with a red baldy from time to time. I was just curious if you have noticed much of a price difference over the years. Does that price difference seem to fluctuate, or can you count on a relative price per pound cut?

The custom butcher that would buy my blacks would pay me 10-15% less for red. He swore it was a marbling issue. I've not had the dilemma in the last half dozen years so my data is dated.
 

Bez+

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
0
Location
Still trying to get back to even.
angus9259":7juje31k said:
brandonm_13":7juje31k said:
Just like most people that have run the angus hereford cross, you will come along with a red baldy from time to time. I was just curious if you have noticed much of a price difference over the years. Does that price difference seem to fluctuate, or can you count on a relative price per pound cut?

The custom butcher that would buy my blacks would pay me 10-15% less for red. He swore it was a marbling issue. I've not had the dilemma in the last half dozen years so my data is dated.

He was so full of schitt his eyes were brown.

He docked you because he could and can.

If it ain't black it is absolutely worthless - we all know this.

Sarcasm folks - do not hit me.

Not sarcasm here - The black phenomenon has been bred into us by every type of media hype and such that you can take a black cow - not even Angus - and have it qualify for CAB - and it will bring a premium.

Truth is - once the clothes come off no one can tell the dammed difference on equally bred and fed red/black baldie cattle - but there is a way to make money - and that is to steal a few cents on anything other than black from the producer.

Ranchers and farmers are price takers - NOT price makers.

The only gene different is the colour gene.

I now stand back and let the BA folks tell me I am a stupid idiot.

Bez+
 

alacattleman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
4,141
Reaction score
0
Location
heart of dixie
Bez+":evtzq1sh said:
angus9259":evtzq1sh said:
brandonm_13":evtzq1sh said:
Just like most people that have run the angus hereford cross, you will come along with a red baldy from time to time. I was just curious if you have noticed much of a price difference over the years. Does that price difference seem to fluctuate, or can you count on a relative price per pound cut?

The custom butcher that would buy my blacks would pay me 10-15% less for red. He swore it was a marbling issue. I've not had the dilemma in the last half dozen years so my data is dated.

He was so full of schitt his eyes were brown.

He docked you because he could and can.

If it ain't black it is absolutely worthless - we all know this.

Sarcasm folks - do not hit me.

Not sarcasm here - The black phenomenon has been bred into us by every type of media hype and such that you can take a black cow - not even Angus - and have it qualify for CAB - and it will bring a premium.

Truth is - once the clothes come off no one can tell the dammed difference on equally bred and fed red/black baldie cattle - but there is a way to make money - and that is to steal a few cents on anything other than black from the producer.

Ranchers and farmers are price takers - NOT price makers.

The only gene different is the colour gene.

I now stand back and let the BA folks tell me I am a stupid idiot.

Bez+
hopefully they well agree with you instead...hard too argue with logic......or is it ;-)
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

I can't agree with you.

If the butcher said the black calves marbled better than the reds, who are you to say he's full of BS? You don't know the guy. Why would you call him a liar?

I don't for a second think that everyone believes every black animal can qualify as CAB. I do agree with you that buyers discount non-black cattle mainly because they can. Just like they often discount eared, spotted, linebacked, and Brahman-influenced cattle.

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.
 

alacattleman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
4,141
Reaction score
0
Location
heart of dixie
Frankie":3c4pvkbl said:
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

I can't agree with you.

If the butcher said the black calves marbled better than the reds, who are you to say he's full of BS? You don't know the guy. Why would you call him a liar?
I don't for a second think that everyone believes every black animal can qualify as CAB. I do agree with you that buyers discount non-black cattle mainly because they can. Just like they often discount eared, spotted, linebacked, and Brahman-influenced cattle.

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.
so he can just assume...not really knowing that their not ,,,and discount according too his S.W. A.G
 

VanC

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
5,174
Reaction score
0
Location
East Central Illinois
Frankie":2jw9oty7 said:
And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype.

CAB has to be mid choice or better, and choice costs more than Select. I thought you knew that.

As for hype, lets's say you have two steaks of equal marbling and tenderness. One is CAB and one is not. The CAB steak will cost more, not because it's better, but because it's marked CAB. That's hype, or as I prefer to call it, marketing.
 

3waycross

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
14,450
Reaction score
5
Location
Colorado
Well we'll be locking this one up soon.

Just keep throwing those FACTS around and this thread will be locked tighter than a ticks _ss
 

CSM

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
302
Reaction score
7
Location
KY
They should bring the same as the black baldies, they may not but they should. Even if it is red it is still half Angus half Hereford.

csm
 

regolith

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
2,795
Reaction score
1
Location
New Zealand
red baldie = red whiteface?
I've been trying to figure out what a baldie is since I got here.

Per dairy crosses, we can sell the black ones, not the red ones, especially if they're speckle-face. Buyers believe the red phenotype comes from a Jersey mother. Even if it doesn't, they won't take the risk.
 

Tod Dague

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
Messages
1,517
Reaction score
0
Location
Central Tx
Frankie":ji6ze9x0 said:
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

I can't agree with you.

If the butcher said the black calves marbled better than the reds, who are you to say he's full of BS? You don't know the guy. Why would you call him a liar?

I don't for a second think that everyone believes every black animal can qualify as CAB. I do agree with you that buyers discount non-black cattle mainly because they can. Just like they often discount eared, spotted, linebacked, and Brahman-influenced cattle.

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.
So you think there is a link in the color gene and the marbling gene? So if I were to AI 100 red cows with one of those heterozygous black angus and ended up with 50 red and 50 black the black calves would have more marbling than the reds because of the color/marbling gene link? I for one think this is BS, and anyone who believes that there is a color/marbling gene link is full of it to.
 

DOC HARRIS

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
3,256
Reaction score
0
Location
Ft. Collins, CO
Bez+

Some of the thoughts that you have expressed in this thread are somewhat unbiquituous, which means that they seem to be everywhere ALL of the time, and I agree with you on SOME of them. The comment about the brown eyes, I can't say - having never seen the person, and knowing that iris color of the eyes are not determined by anything except genetics! The comment about why the Custom Butcher docks producers (" . . .because he could and can..") I agree with - totally! They can, did and do!

I understand the sarcasm - and I agree with your assessment regarding black HIDED animals qualifying for CAB. But - - looking at the overall situation from a marketing point of view, I do concur to a point with AAA and CAB proponents insofar that - - what would be an alterative option?? Can you come up with an idea that would perform in a more pragmatic manner on the "Meat Market Scene?" I readily concur that it is not the most desirable or acceptable method for designation of "optimal" beef products, but - - - - ? ? ? What are your suggestions for improvements? ..and not just the "Make Money" decisions on marketing protocols. I am talking about a lo-o-o-ng term prospectus.

You are NOT a stupid idiot - not by a long shot! You are so correct on some of your assumptions that no one in the "KNOW" can contradict your observations. The one fact that I think most observers are missing is that over a period of time ( 40 +/- years ) the intensive selective breeding that Angus Breeders have practiced has resulted in genetic CHANGES, which may or may not be in the best interests of the beef cattle industry in their entirety. "Growth" and "Maternal" improvements and differences have certainly focused the Angus breed's genetics on EPD modifications and adaptations, but some of the attendant and corollary traits and characteristics have 'suffered', if you will. Traits such as Low Birth Weight, High Milk production, Fertility being questioned with Scrotal Circumference being lessened over time - these encourage the lessening of strong Terminal characteristics, such as Hind Quarter muscling (resulting in Funnel Butts!). But their OTHER positive characteristics IN COMBINATION WITH the Growth and Maternal factors leads to the Black Angus breed becoming the most desirable breed to use in a Cross-breeding protocol with ALL other breeds! Therefore, the hide color of BLACK stands out aggressively as the "Color to go to" in the thinking of most Terminal producers in the Cow/calf portion of the Beef Business. Taking the "Line of LEAST Resistance", most breeder's will take that line, PARTICULARLY since many feedlots, slaughter houses, and Retail Marketers have taken the easy road, and capitalized on publicity. "Has to be BLACK!" I agree that it is a sad state of affairs that we find ourselves in, but, if you think about it, almost EVERY business has the same type of 'negative' publicity to overcome - Coca-Cola, General Electric, DELL Computers, The New York Yankees, Yugo Automobiles, Haband Clothing, Subaru trucks, and others too numerous to remember - - and most of them have brought it on themselves!

The BLACK color gene dictates hide color, but the excellent traits and characteristics resulting from intensive breeding of BLACK ANGUS CATTLE over the last 40 years is what has produced the desired progress that the Beef Cattle Industry has experienced. And ALL breeds have been the benefactors to one degree or another! It is just unfortunate that many people, in the Beef Cattle Profession or not, tend to believe that the "Color" has a bearing on Quality, when in reality it is what the Black Cattle GENETICS are exacting. This is a 'case in point' which just exemplifies the FACT that understanding and using EPD's intelligently, not Willy-nilly, is necessary for predictable PROFIT.

The color RED, the color TAN, the color WHITE, the colorS of Composites and Crossbreeds have NOTHING to do with the quality of the Bovine Beneath the Hide. It is the "Genes of the Breeding which dictate the Quality of the Progeny!"

DOC HARRIS
 

Northern Rancher

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
0
Location
Canada
I'm pretty sure we've sold some red hided cattle that graded CAB-when the cattle are graded in Canada not sure if the grader knows the hide colour. The certified Angus tags the association pimps are a joke-If i run 5 Angus bulls on Hereford cows I can tag every calf with a Canadian Angus tags-if I run 5 Hereford bulls on 200 straight black cows I can't tag any. The auctions up here sell the majority of the calves presorted-the few that have Angus tags go in with the majority that don't. But it makes good ad copy-seems that's all most breed associations are about now anyways.
 

SRBeef

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,931
Reaction score
1
Location
SW Wisconsin
Frankie":1fpw3cwn said:
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

I can't agree with you.

If the butcher said the black calves marbled better than the reds, who are you to say he's full of BS? You don't know the guy. Why would you call him a liar?

I don't for a second think that everyone believes every black animal can qualify as CAB. I do agree with you that buyers discount non-black cattle mainly because they can. Just like they often discount eared, spotted, linebacked, and Brahman-influenced cattle.

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.

I think the key point in BEZ' statement is that IF they are raised and fed the same....

I agree with BEZ - among the beef breeds (say Angus and Hereford) IF they are raised and fed and slaughtered the same I doubt that I would be able to tell a difference in the steak. I have not been able to so far.

Comparing a feedlot steer stuffed with corn of either breed with a basically grassfed steer of the other breed coming off pasture to the butcher shop, yes, you will be able to tell a difference in the steak.
 

Bez+

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
0
Location
Still trying to get back to even.
SRBeef":1i00y1wp said:
Frankie":1i00y1wp said:
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.

I think the key point in BEZ' statement is that IF they are raised and fed the same....

I agree with BEZ - among the beef breeds (say Angus and Hereford) IF they are raised and fed and slaughtered the same I doubt that I would be able to tell a difference in the steak. I have not been able to so far.

Nice to see someone read the whole post and catch what I believe to be the vital point.

once the clothes come off no one can tell the dammed difference on equally bred and fed red/black baldie cattle

I stand by this statement - however colour will always rise to the top - because the buyer simply can pay what s/he wants and the producer will take it or get stuffed - making the farmer a price taker - not a price maker.

Black is not always the best - but few would have you believe it.

Bez+
 

KNERSIE

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
7,058
Reaction score
1
Location
3rd World
Frankie":1bp76npl said:
Hey, Bez. I hope things are going well for you?

I can't agree with you.

If the butcher said the black calves marbled better than the reds, who are you to say he's full of BS? You don't know the guy. Why would you call him a liar?

I don't for a second think that everyone believes every black animal can qualify as CAB. I do agree with you that buyers discount non-black cattle mainly because they can. Just like they often discount eared, spotted, linebacked, and Brahman-influenced cattle.

And, no, cattle aren't the same once the hide comes off. I was just at my local supermarket. They had Select ribeyes on sale for $5 a lb (regular price $8) and CAB ribeyes for $11. There's a reason for the price difference and it's not hype. Most of us aren't stupid enough to pay a premium, over and over, for something that doesn't match our expectations.

Frankie, given this specific situation....

Would it be fair to argue that black angus carrying the red factor marbles less than homozygous black angus?
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
KNERSIE said:
Would it be fair to argue that black angus carrying the red factor marbles less than homozygous black angus?

The red factor is pretty much a non-factor here in the US. We have a breed of black cattle called Angus and we have a breed of red cattle called Red Angus. They're are likely a few Angus that carry the red factor, but,IMO, not enough of them to include in this discussion. The AAA calls the red gene a Class II genetic defect because it doesn't affect the animal's ability to grow, breed, etc. We don't use any bull we know is carrying the red factor and no other Angus breeder that I know will use them because the red calves aren't registerable.
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Bez+":2g5q6iux said:
I stand by this statement - however colour will always rise to the top - because the buyer simply can pay what s/he wants and the producer will take it or get stuffed - making the farmer a price taker - not a price maker.

Black is not always the best - but few would have you believe it.

Bez+

Bez, if cattle are
equally bred and fed
here in the US, they'll be black or red (since we're talking about red baldies not Chars, Longhorns, etc.) If they have Angus influence, they'll be black. If they have Red Angus or Hereford, influence, they'll be red. So you can't have black and red animals "equally bred" in this country.

There are many knowledgable people who will tell you that you can't manage a potential Select animal up to Prime, but you can mis-manage a potential Prime down to Select. The genetics have to be there first, management comes next.

I don't think I've ever contended that black is always best. There are probably Angus cattle that won't gain in the feedlot or hang a quality carcass. But when a buyer goes to the sale barn and watches hundreds of 4-500 lb calves run through the ring, breed traits are mostly what he has to work with. Some breeds are known not to do well in the feedlot. Some breeds are known for tougher meat. Some breeds are known not to marble. Some to get too big for the packer's box. The Angus breed here in the US didn't get to the top of the heap with smoke and mirrors. We've worked for it. Probably twice as many Angus bulls are performance tested today than any other breed, maybe three times as many. That's not cheap to do. More than half the Angus calves registered last year were AI sired. An AI program is not an easy thing to manage. The AHIR program continues to grow as breeders weigh and ultersound more animals each year and it pays off in more reliable EPDs. Again, that's not cheap or easy.
 

3waycross

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
14,450
Reaction score
5
Location
Colorado
The AAA calls the red gene a Class II genetic defect because it doesn't affect the animal's ability to grow, breed, etc.

My guess is that "etc" also includes all those other magnificent traits that make ANGUS the superior breed that YOU and the rest of the Angus world claim them to be.

Frankie you are hoisted on your own petard. You have just admited there is no difference other than hide color between RED ANGUS and BLACK ANGUS

Must be about time to lock this one up!
 

Latest posts

Top