How Do You Select a Bull?

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The last 2 years i have chosen my bulls by messaging Simme. He understands what i like and knows EPD's better than i do. He sends me pictures and tells me when to come get them.
Anyone in the south east , that was looking for a Simental or SimmAngus bull, I would recommend @simme without hesitation. If I was looking for a Simm or SimmAngus bull for myself, I would do exactly like you do, @kenny thomas .The man knows what he is doing,.. and has a stellar reputation for honesty and integrity. And there are others like him in other parts of the country, and with other breeds. Same thing with an Angus bull. If I was looking for a top registered Angus bull, I would message or call @gizmom . EPD's, and bloodlines, and sales catalouges ,websites, etc, are good tools , no doubt. So is driving around the country looking at bulls, if you have the time. But, I think the most valuable of all, is finding a reputable breeder with satisfied clients that you can talk to, and CT forums is an excellent source. I have formed my opinion of @simme , @gizmom , @Jeanne - Simme Valley , and others from the information they share here, and their websites and/or social media sites, for sure. But a BIG part of it, is what others...their clients.... say about them, their operations, and their bulls.
 
Simme raises bulls the way i want them to be. On fescue with no feed until weaned. Then only lightly fed.
I know some like test station bulls that are heavly fed but i wont give those bulls a second look no matter their EPD's. Yes i have owned them and they fell apart with my management. Once here they must live 11 months of the year on grass. This year unless i get snow it will be 12 months.
Plus i had lots of foot issues.
 
Back when I was buying bulls I got them from one outfit. They ran about 400+ cows and had retained ownership on their calves. They had been doing it for decades and been real successful. They kept back 24 of their best bull calves to sell. No papers or EPD. They did buy some top of the line outside bulls and did do some AI every year. So the genetics were there just not on paper. They shot for a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Simme in their calves going to the feedlot. The bulls they held back every year were 12 straight Angus and 12 Sim Angus. They did have birth dates and weaning weights on all the bulls. If you asked they would show how well the earlier calves by the cow had preformed in the feedlot. Bulls were just on mother's milk and green grass to weaning. After weaning they got decent grass hay and 4 pounds of grain a day. Got to live with the north Pacific slapping them in the face all winter. The Sim Angus weaned in the low 800-high 700 lb range. When I picked them up in April they would weigh around 1,100 lb.
 
I will probably put a couple of more charolais in the mix next year…these have always made really good calves…if it ain't broke, don't fix it is my motto
Since you have a Brangus bull, you ought to find some red Charolais cows. Assuming he is homo for black, you'd always get black calves. No sense in giving up that CA premium if you don't have to. Brangus x Char will be some growthy calves, no doubt.
 
Since you have a Brangus bull, you ought to find some red Charolais cows. Assuming he is homo for black, you'd always get black calves. No sense in giving up that CA premium if you don't have to. Brangus x Char will be some growthy calves, no doubt.
Tried to find some…a guy I know raises charolais and bred some with a little bit of a red tint but I wasn't interested in the timing for calving…a little early for my tastes…I'll see what he has next year…if the reds don't pan out, I'm not opposed to whites. Don't really see much difference in price at the sale barn we use. And these whites we already have produce good growthy calves.
 
Tried to find some…a guy I know raises charolais and bred some with a little bit of a red tint but I wasn't interested in the timing for calving…a little early for my tastes…I'll see what he has next year…if the reds don't pan out, I'm not opposed to whites. Don't really see much difference in price at the sale barn we use. And these whites we already have produce good growthy calves.
Those with the bit of red tint...the tans.....yellows.....whatever they are called..... just have one copy of the dilute gene. Using them with a black bull, you would get 50% black and 50% smokies. The homo for red Charolais have no copy of the dilute gene. They are dark red,,, like red Angus, Limms, Salers, etc. Bred to a homo for black bull, 100& of the calves will be black.
 
The problem with EPDs is that the some of the big players in the seedstock business are blatantly skewing the numbers. People know it and not doing anything about it.
But it ruins the breed averages for the rest of us.

I suppose a big operation could transfer 29 or so dead cows to a friend. Have that friend submit fraudulent data on "calves" from these dead cows - positive data for calves sired by their bull from these dead cows and negative data on "calves" sired by someone else's bull. Hoping to boost the epd's on their bull. Wonder how that would work out? Seems like I read something about a scheme like that a few years ago.

I think the punishment for a scheme like that should be severe.
 

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I suppose a big operation could transfer 29 or so dead cows to a friend. Have that friend submit fraudulent data on "calves" from these dead cows - positive data for calves sired by their bull from these dead cows and negative data on "calves" sired by some else's bull. Hoping to boost the epd's on their bull. Wonder how that would work out? Seems like I read something about a scheme like that a few years ago.

I think the punishment for a scheme like that should be severe.
A vet I used to know, who grew up in Michigan said there was a Hereford breeder there that had ridiculous weaning weights. Come to find out, he had a pen of Holstein nurse cows and twice a day he would turn the calves in with them while their Hereford mothers were fed silage.
Some people go to an awful amount of work to play the game.
 
A vet I used to know, who grew up in Michigan said there was a Hereford breeder there that had ridiculous weaning weights. Come to find out, he had a pen of Holstein nurse cows and twice a day he would turn the calves in with them while their Hereford mothers were fed silage.
Some people go to an awful amount of work to play the game.
that's just wild!
 
A vet I used to know, who grew up in Michigan said there was a Hereford breeder there that had ridiculous weaning weights. Come to find out, he had a pen of Holstein nurse cows and twice a day he would turn the calves in with them while their Hereford mothers were fed silage.
Some people go to an awful amount of work to play the game.
How about those using Holstein heifers as recip cows for their embryos? That would definitely effect weaning weights.
 
Those with the bit of red tint...the tans.....yellows.....whatever they are called..... just have one copy of the dilute gene. Using them with a black bull, you would get 50% black and 50% smokies. The homo for red Charolais have no copy of the dilute gene. They are dark red,,, like red Angus, Limms, Salers, etc. Bred to a homo for black bull, 100& of the calves will be black.
That's what I get with the white ones I have now - about 50/50…but I haven't seen any differences in the price I get at the sale barn when all other things are equal…
 
We never did find out what breed the OP has in South Africa.
When I started ranching, I took over a herd of Red Angus cattle. It was in the middle of a severe drought, and the cows were struggling without supplementary feed. I decided to replace all the Angus bulls with Brahman bulls to produce an F1 cross. Now, I'm using Tuli bulls on the F1 females. Over the next few years, I plan to transition my herd to pure Tulis by breeding replacements back to Tuli bulls and maintaining a nucleus herd. The rest of the herd will be terminally crossed with Beefmaster or Droughtmaster bulls, allowing me the flexibility to retain heifers if needed.
 
No it's Expected Progeny Differences!
It's a way of saying how much difference from the control animal within that breed.
Control meaning the average for the breed. If it's WW (weaning weight) is 35,
That means this animal will likely add 35 more pounds above the average for that breed at weaning time!
If EPDs are what they say they are, then it shouldn't be a problem to put them to the test. My friend has this bull that is well below breed average for growth EPDs. IMG_0033.jpeg
14z was the most massive bull I have ever seen. I won't say that there is a lot of deliberate manipulation of EPDs but rather they are given an impossible task.
 
There's a topic for discussion. Does a real big mature bull (2600 to 3000#) sire more growth in his calves? Birth to slaughter growth? Is there more economic value in a huge bull? Is the growth curve steeper or do they just continue to grow longer? How much does a bull need to weigh?
 
A vet I used to know, who grew up in Michigan said there was a Hereford breeder there that had ridiculous weaning weights. Come to find out, he had a pen of Holstein nurse cows and twice a day he would turn the calves in with them while their Hereford mothers were fed silage.
Some people go to an awful amount of work to play the game.
That was common in show cattle in the late past. One famous Angus bull got some Holstein in his DNA when they mixed up the nurse cow's calf for the Angus calf.
 
There's a topic for discussion. Does a real big mature bull (2600 to 3000#) sire more growth in his calves? Birth to slaughter growth? Is there more economic value in a huge bull? Is the growth curve steeper or do they just continue to grow longer? How much does a bull need to weigh?
I like bulls not carrying a tremendous amount of fat. My bulls usually mature on grass at 1800-2000lb. The 600U bull i bought from @simme turned 2 November 4th. He is probably 1500lb and has been out with the cows since early May.
The EPD's, if you believe in them and i do, are the same on him as if he weighed 1200 or 2200 at this age. My farms are steep and a bull must be able to travel well. I know some can but lots of heavy bulls are just like a 400lb man, they dont perform well.
 

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