Horned/Polled Hereford

[irked]

buy the best cows, regardless of the headgear.

 

[dun]

Has there ever been a DNA study showing just which cattle are truly Angus?

Strange coincidence. When the vet stopped by to BS the other day I asked him about that. He said that after about the second generation of the cross it's to the point that the reasults are inconclusive.

 

[Idaman]

Doesn't the problem go much deeper than a few recently falsified papers.

Back in the late seventies and eighties it was common knowledge that the Angus were being crossed with all sorts of other breeds to chase the size fad........... Has there ever been a DNA study showing just which cattle are truly Angus?

I have never heard of one, though the difficult part would be getting consensus on what IS exactly Angus. Do we assume that cattle breeders in the 1950s were more honest than cattle breeders in the 1970s thus those cattle are more likely to be pure???? If nonAngus genetics found their way into the herd book in the 1970s, how much more likely is it that nonAngus genetics found their way into the herd book in the 1870s and 1890s when the American ANgus herd was growing exponentially? Do we go back to Scotland and find some legacy herd there and set that as the standard? how the heck would you tell the difference between a 3/4 blood Angus and a fullblood Angus and how would you be able to PROVE that the genes that appear to be non-Angus weren't part of Angus's genetic diversity 100 years ago?? Undoubtedly there are as many genes that were in the Angus genotype in the 1850s that were lost over the years as there are nonAngus genes that have been added through unscrupulous behavior, negligent management, or completely accidental (bulls will be bulls afterall). Finally what would you do with that information if you had it??? I certainly would never publish it given the high likelihood that (1) I would lose a lot of friends when I exposed their cattle as being fraudulent and in a lot of cases their daddys and (2) probably spend numerous years in court being sued.

What you say is definitely true but I still have some questions and observations. Why are these genetic defects showing up now after the alledged widespread use of non-Angus cattle? It is not just showing up in the DNA tests but also on the ground. The Angus have definitely not been linebred or these defects would have shown up much earlier.

I have a much closer connection with Herefords and they went through the same problems in the 80s. Remember Titan 777 or Bullwinkle. I also remember seeing just the other day an AHJ add from Holden's around 1980 in which they said that they had tested every cow in their herd and that they were all 100% Hereford. This was back when only blood typeing was available. Did they know something we do not?

I believe that AHA leadership blinked and cowed back then just because of the lawsuit issue. On the other hand, how many other breeders were drawn in and devastated from the use of bulls like 777? They had just come through dwarfism and didn't seem to care who they hurt then.

The issue of losing friends is at the bottom of my priorities.

For one I am going to pursue the issue for me at least of genetic purity and may even require that before purchasing any new animals. Example CarFax.

I have purchased lots of Angus bulls over the years and some after 5 years of age have Holstein written all over them and others display the characteristics of the early day imports as well as the most recent Scottish imports.

 

[Black Coos]

I do not like horns thus I use a Polled Hereford on my Black Coos, many years ago I would not have use a Polled Hereford because of the small gene pool compared with Horn Herefords. Today the just is not that much difference to me...

 

[robert]

What you say is definitely true but I still have some questions and observations. Why are these genetic defects showing up now after the alledged widespread use of non-Angus cattle? It is not just showing up in the DNA tests but also on the ground. The Angus have definitely not been linebred or these defects would have shown up much earlier.

actually there was quite a bit of linebreeding going on, it was just that people were more interested in the great numbers they were stacking up than those pesky names written on the paper underneath the all-powerful epds. I would contend that two of the defects did not originate in Angus but in the 'infused' blood, another (NH) was a spontaneous mutation which manifested itself in the carcass race genetics. I hope if the who defect episode has taught breeders one thing it is that the two most important items on a registration certificate are the breeders name and the pedigree!

 

[wtrapp]

No scurs guys. Horns; and yes the cows are truly registered angus. Now, not every calf had horns and in some years a cow has a calf with horns the next year polled. I agree it shouldn't happen, but it did. Go figure

be real interested in seeing some reg numbers on those cows, just for curiosity's sake

Here you go: 14393248

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

When Dr. Jan Bonsma was developing the Bonsmara breed he opted for Horned Hereford and Shorthorn as the British base rather than any of the polled bulls tested.

Dr. Bonsma stated that of the animals tested being polled was a factor affecting prolapse of the prepuce in bulls. He further stated that : "[t]he condition is found in various breeds but its detrimental consequences occur with greater frequency in certain breeds, especially in the Santa Gertrudis breed of cattle and in bulls of some of the polled breeds."

I am not stating my opinion; I am stating Dr. Bonsma's opinon. So rip the good doc in your replies--not me!! :roll:

can I get the source for your quote. I have searched and can come up with nothing...yet. I just find it to be an odd quote for Dr. Bonsma to single out a breed.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Acutally, I think I found it. He pointed out Santa Gertrudis because they were the test group used for Brahman influenced cattle. Basically Bos Indicus cattle tested higher. And they naturally would. Bonsmara cattle would probably have tested very similarly beings they are 5/8 Afrikaner, or at least more so than any other breed that is not pendulous sheathed. Lazy prepuces happen in all breeds, imo, polled or not. I think a lot of people do not give it the attention it deserves. I don't keep a bull calf a bull if they have a lazy prepuce. I even market them as not having a lazy prepuce. I have herd of some cattlemen going so far as to circumsizing their bulls with lazy prepuces, in more than one breed.

 

[Calman]

Where is Frankie??????

Cal

 

[Bonsman]

When Dr. Jan Bonsma was developing the Bonsmara breed he opted for Horned Hereford and Shorthorn as the British base rather than any of the polled bulls tested.

Dr. Bonsma stated that of the animals tested being polled was a factor affecting prolapse of the prepuce in bulls. He further stated that : "[t]he condition is found in various breeds but its detrimental consequences occur with greater frequency in certain breeds, especially in the Santa Gertrudis breed of cattle and in bulls of some of the polled breeds."

I am not stating my opinion; I am stating Dr. Bonsma's opinon. So rip the good doc in your replies--not me!! :roll:

can I get the source for your quote. I have searched and can come up with nothing...yet. I just find it to be an odd quote for Dr. Bonsma to single out a breed.

The source is "Man Must Measure" by Bonsma, pages 81-82. Second source is Venter and Maree in their paper, "Factors affecting prolapse of the prepuce in bulls" and also papers by Long (1969) and Donaldson and Aubrey (1960). Again, Bonsama's opininon not mine.

 

[Bonsman]

Acutally, I think I found it. He pointed out Santa Gertrudis because they were the test group used for Brahman influenced cattle. Basically Bos Indicus cattle tested higher. And they naturally would. Bonsmara cattle would probably have tested very similarly beings they are 5/8 Afrikaner, or at least more so than any other breed that is not pendulous sheathed. Lazy prepuces happen in all breeds, imo, polled or not. I think a lot of people do not give it the attention it deserves. I don't keep a bull calf a bull if they have a lazy prepuce. I even market them as not having a lazy prepuce. I have herd of some cattlemen going so far as to circumsizing their bulls with lazy prepuces, in more than one breed.

No, they were comparing horned breeds vs polled breeds. Out of 244 bulls from 13 different breeds, prolapse of the prepuce was recorded in 85% of the polled breeds and only 1.4% of the horned breeds. The source is research by Long in 1969 and Donaldson and Aubrey 1960. The original question was Horned or Polled Hereford. I am simply providing the original poster with information from Dr. Bonsma on this specific subject. Bonsma favored Horned animals.