Horn gene ? and misc. BQA and observations.

[Ky hills]

We went to renew BQA certification this morning.
Basically watched videos and already knew and doing what they were saying for years now.
A couple things stood out that I kind of questioned in the subject of bulls.
It seemed like they were recommending/promotion calving ease, and homozygous polled bulls.
The videos which was mainly University of KY professors on the genetics and part of the handling. The topic of double polled came up in the video and it said that double polled bulls had two polled alleles. That was one of the questions on the "test" was what is the term for a bull with two polled alleles. Afterwards the county agent said the video was wrong and it was called homozygous polled.
It is my longtime understanding that yes double polled bulls can still sometimes have horned calves when bred horned cows unless they happen to be homozygous polled. Then there's still the African horn gene that doesn't play by the rules too.
My understanding has always been that all homozygous polled bulls are double polled but not all double polled animals are homozygous polled, that is why the genetic testing is often done.
I have understood it as they have 2 copies of a polled gene be it Pp or PP but to be homozygous they have to have two copies of PP.
The county agent disagreed saying they call it homozygous now and that the video was older and wrong. I don't think the agent liked me questioning him about that.
One thing I did see about the video that I disagree with is that it seems like they were pushing the concept of calving ease bulls.

 

[redcowsrule33]

My understanding always has been that double polled just means both parents were polled but doesn't guarantee they are homozygous.

 

[Ky hills]

My understanding always has been that double polled just means both parents were polled but doesn't guarantee they are homozygous.

That what think too, but the double polled individual would have two copies of some kind of polled gene whether it's homozygous or not.

 

[moses388]

source: UC Davis VGL
-Everybody lives in their own little world.

 

[wbvs58]

We went to renew BQA certification this morning.
Basically watched videos and already knew and doing what they were saying for years now.
A couple things stood out that I kind of questioned in the subject of bulls.
It seemed like they were recommending/promotion calving ease, and homozygous polled bulls.
The videos which was mainly University of KY professors on the genetics and part of the handling. The topic of double polled came up in the video and it said that double polled bulls had two polled alleles. That was one of the questions on the "test" was what is the term for a bull with two polled alleles. Afterwards the county agent said the video was wrong and it was called homozygous polled.
It is my longtime understanding that yes double polled bulls can still sometimes have horned calves when bred horned cows unless they happen to be homozygous polled. Then there's still the African horn gene that doesn't play by the rules too.
My understanding has always been that all homozygous polled bulls are double polled but not all double polled animals are homozygous polled, that is why the genetic testing is often done.
I have understood it as they have 2 copies of a polled gene be it Pp or PP but to be homozygous they have to have two copies of PP.
The county agent disagreed saying they call it homozygous now and that the video was older and wrong. I don't think the agent liked me questioning him about that.
One thing I did see about the video that I disagree with is that it seems like they were pushing the concept of calving ease bulls.

Is this all in relation to animal welfare KY? With our certification they don't go into the details of alleles of the inheritance just the desirability of using polled genetics to improve the animal welfare outcomes. I guess pushing calving ease bulls is also aimed at animal welfare especially in herds where calving is not closely watched.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

We went to renew BQA certification this morning.
Basically watched videos and already knew and doing what they were saying for years now.
A couple things stood out that I kind of questioned in the subject of bulls.
It seemed like they were recommending/promotion calving ease, and homozygous polled bulls.
The videos which was mainly University of KY professors on the genetics and part of the handling. The topic of double polled came up in the video and it said that double polled bulls had two polled alleles. That was one of the questions on the "test" was what is the term for a bull with two polled alleles. Afterwards the county agent said the video was wrong and it was called homozygous polled.
It is my longtime understanding that yes double polled bulls can still sometimes have horned calves when bred horned cows unless they happen to be homozygous polled. Then there's still the African horn gene that doesn't play by the rules too.
My understanding has always been that all homozygous polled bulls are double polled but not all double polled animals are homozygous polled, that is why the genetic testing is often done.
I have understood it as they have 2 copies of a polled gene be it Pp or PP but to be homozygous they have to have two copies of PP.
The county agent disagreed saying they call it homozygous now and that the video was older and wrong. I don't think the agent liked me questioning him about that.
One thing I did see about the video that I disagree with is that it seems like they were pushing the concept of calving ease bulls.

When I was taking my beef production classes in college they were pushing the idea that polled bulls were harder calving than horned bulls. And over time I've seen more calving problems due to what I see as incapable cows... which I think is related to calving ease/low birth weight bulls being used to make replacement heifers for several generations.

Could I be wrong? Could the people feeding us the sales pitches? You pays your money and you takes your chances...

A homozygous polled animal has no horned genes, so they will always throw a polled calf (except with cattle carrying the African horn genes) with cattle from European roots.

 

[Ky hills]

Is this all in relation to animal welfare KY? With our certification they don't go into the details of alleles of the inheritance just the desirability of using polled genetics to improve the animal welfare outcomes. I guess pushing calving ease bulls is also aimed at animal welfare especially in herds where calving is not closely watched.

Ken

Yes it's kind of an umbrella of animal welfare, but seems to be a lot of it geared toward health and beef quality.
They said that prior to having those programs 30% of carcasses had blemishes from injection sites and rough handling and now they say the incidence rate is under 2%.

 

[Rmc]

Multiple gene locations can affect horned /vs polled. Not a simple single gene phenotype!

 

[Ky hills]

When I was taking my beef production classes in college they were pushing the idea that polled bulls were harder calving than horned bulls. And over time I've seen more calving problems due to what I see as incapable cows... which I think is related to calving ease/low birth weight bulls being used to make replacement heifers for several generations.

Could I be wrong? Could the people feeding us the sales pitches? You pays your money and you takes your chances...

A homozygous polled animal has no horned genes, so they will always throw a polled calf (except with cattle carrying the African horn genes) with cattle from European roots.

I haven't heard that about polled cattle being harder calving, I have no idea whether there's anything there or not.
I would think that in terms of the original horned continental breeds that polled animals might have been easier calving as they were likely to have some polled British breeding in their background.
Yeah I don't think it's sound strategy to continually breed for calving ease

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

I have raising 3 Jersey bottle heifer calves. One was born here to a cow I raised and dehorned her with paste. That heifer was also going to dehorned with paste. They bought these 2 heifers from a dairy, they was ready to dehorn but no buds could be found. They are born polled. They came from an Organic dairy which of course wants to tell customers cruelty free. Is hornlesnes homozygous like purebed Angus of heterozygous in Jerseys? I'm thinking of the next generation.

 

[SDgrampa]

Wouldn't be the first time a county extension agent was wrong

 

[OBAX]

I don't guess I understand how calving ease is not sound strategy? Do we not want our calves born easy? Some of the best growth and performance calves I've raised came off of calving ease bulls. To me it's kinda like saying I do not want my truck to be more fuel efficient.
As far as BQA goes, it's a great educational program aimed at reducing instances of pain and stress in cattle that are avoidable and unnecessary. Stress and pain are a bad look for us in the eyes of a city slicker.

 

[Ky hills]

I don't guess I understand how calving ease is not sound strategy? Do we not want our calves born easy? Some of the best growth and performance calves I've raised came off of calving ease bulls. To me it's kinda like saying I do not want my truck to be more fuel efficient.
As far as BQA goes, it's a great educational program aimed at reducing instances of pain and stress in cattle that are avoidable and unnecessary. Stress and pain are a bad look for us in the eyes of a city slicker.

Yes the BQA stuff about handling, loading sorting as well as vaccine storage/handling, proper injection site, needle size, etc is beneficial.
The calving ease thing, yeah obviously you want to avoid hard calving from a management standpoint it's not good for people or the cows, problem is with extreme calving ease and stacking generations of it.
There is very little need to repeatedly breed for 50 pound calves, yet that is a reality for a lot of people. The cows could have larger calves without any trouble. Those little calves at birth usually perform similar and wean off considerably lighter too.
For instance I would not be worried at all with an Angus bull with a BW of 3-4 for cows you don't need a -1 BW bull for cows and not likely even for heifers.

 

[gcreekrch]

Similar program here call Verified Beef Producer. More concerned with antibiotic withdrawals and placement than anything.
We have neighbors with a big VPB sign on the front gate that remove absolutely no net wrap or plastic twine before bales go in the processor and wonder about random deaths in their cow herd. Not to mention plastic trash everywhere.

 

[Travlr]

I don't guess I understand how calving ease is not sound strategy? Do we not want our calves born easy? Some of the best growth and performance calves I've raised came off of calving ease bulls. To me it's kinda like saying I do not want my truck to be more fuel efficient.
As far as BQA goes, it's a great educational program aimed at reducing instances of pain and stress in cattle that are avoidable and unnecessary. Stress and pain are a bad look for us in the eyes of a city slicker.

What is the weight of a normal sized calf? Cows used to spit out 90 pound calves with no more problems than they do sixty pound calves today. How far do we go with this? In another fifty years do we look for 40 pound calves because cows can't deliver 60 pound calves?

If we keep replacement heifers that were 60 pounds instead of maintaining a 90+ pound criteria for a successful delivery aren't we changing the likelihood of our cows being capable of calving normal sized calves?

The hips on a cow that calves successfully has either been large enough to deliver or has the ability to spread enough to deliver. I want cows that can put a 100+ pound calf on the ground. Not necessarily because I want monster calves, but because there are always going be big calves that are outside the norm and I don't want to kill my cows by making them incapable.

And I think bigger calves as an average are more likely to be successful in many kinds of ways.

I have not problems breeding first time heifers to calving ease/LBW bulls, but I want my experienced cows to prove they can deliver a normal sized calf or they are on the cull list. And I never kept heifers for replacements unless they are out of older cows that had proven themselves.

 

[GoWyo]

What is the weight of a normal sized calf? Cows used to spit out 90 pound calves with no more problems than they do sixty pound calves today. How far do we go with this? In another fifty years do we look for 40 pound calves because cows can't deliver 60 pound calves?

If we keep replacement heifers that were 60 pounds instead of maintaining a 90+ pound criteria for a successful delivery aren't we changing the likelihood of our cows being capable of calving normal sized calves?

The hips on a cow that calves successfully has either been large enough to deliver or has the ability to spread enough to deliver. I want cows that can put a 100+ pound calf on the ground. Not necessarily because I want monster calves, but because there are always going be big calves that are outside the norm and I don't want to kill my cows by making them incapable.

And I think bigger calves as an average are more likely to be successful in many kinds of ways.

What is your selection strategy for this goal? Retain the highest BW heifer calves born unassisted?

 

[Travlr]

What is your selection strategy for this goal? Retain the highest BW heifer calves born unassisted?

I don't make it too complicated. I just keep replacements from cows that had proven themselves. I think this works in many ways. Cows that are over ten have better chances to throw heifers with longevity, and long term fertility, and calving capability.
The only downside is that if you are chasing some kind of popular trend you are years behind the curve to some extent. But really, I don't see that as a problem unless for showing cattle.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Double Polled is just a "term" used to say "both parents were polled, but we have not DNA tested this animal" and don't KNOW if the animal is Homozygous or not.
Homozygous Polled is the proper term for an animal carrying 2 polled genes - PP.
Polled is the dominant gene.

Breeding CE to CE is a disaster waiting to happen. I breed my heifers to bulls, expecting the heifers to be able to handle 90# calves. Most have 70-90#. When I choose a CE sire, I try to find one that has great GROWTH traits also ("spread bulls"). Most "spread bulls" are shorter gestation bulls, making the calves BW lighter.

 

[gcreekrch]

What is the weight of a normal sized calf? Cows used to spit out 90 pound calves with no more problems than they do sixty pound calves today. How far do we go with this? In another fifty years do we look for 40 pound calves because cows can't deliver 60 pound calves?

If we keep replacement heifers that were 60 pounds instead of maintaining a 90+ pound criteria for a successful delivery aren't we changing the likelihood of our cows being capable of calving normal sized calves?

The hips on a cow that calves successfully has either been large enough to deliver or has the ability to spread enough to deliver. I want cows that can put a 100+ pound calf on the ground. Not necessarily because I want monster calves, but because there are always going be big calves that are outside the norm and I don't want to kill my cows by making them incapable.

And I think bigger calves as an average are more likely to be successful in many kinds of ways.

I have not problems breeding first time heifers to calving ease/LBW bulls, but I want my experienced cows to prove they can deliver a normal sized calf or they are on the cull list. And I never kept heifers for replacements unless they are out of older cows that had proven themselves.

If a 1300 lb cow can't give birth to a properly presented 90 to 110 lb calf she needs her head cut off.

 

[Travlr]

If a 1300 lb cow can't give birth to a properly presented 90 to 110 lb calf she needs her head cut off.

I'd say 1100 pound cow, but we are on the same page.