homozygous polled

[Anonymous]

Somewhere I've read that if a bull sires all polled (no horns or scurs) calves out of a set number of horned cows, the bull is considered homozygous. Anyone know the number of horned cows that would be?



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[Anonymous]

I can't aly may hands (mouse) on the exact data right now but I believe if he is bred to either 5 or 7 and I'm leaning towards 7, with no horns he can be assumed polled. That's statistically. I believe it's 10 or 13 to be "proven" 100% that he is polled. I didn't word that very well. Slow brain today

dun

> Somewhere I've read that if a bull
> sires all polled (no horns or
> scurs) calves out of a set number
> of horned cows, the bull is
> considered homozygous. Anyone know
> the number of horned cows that
> would be?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure of the numbers either. One small correction though. A homozygous polled animal can still throw scurrs. We've had some out of our PB. Angus cows.

 

[Anonymous]

Scurs and horns are two totally different gene sets. Horns mask the scurs.

dun

> I'm not sure of the numbers
> either. One small correction
> though. A homozygous polled animal
> can still throw scurrs. We've had
> some out of our PB. Angus cows.

 

[Anonymous]

My mistake. In reference to the first post in this thread, I should have wrote that a homozygous polled animal will not necessarily remove the scurrs from its resulting offspring but they will not be horned.

> Scurs and horns are two totally
> different gene sets. Horns mask
> the scurs.

> dun

 

[Anonymous]

Realizing that the scurred gene is sex linked and different from the polled gene, why do some homo polled bulls do a better job of eliminating scurrs than others? With Angus that have supposedly been polled "for ever", some can eliminate the scurrs while others won't.

> My mistake. In reference to the
> first post in this thread, I
> should have wrote that a
> homozygous polled animal will not
> necessarily remove the scurrs from
> its resulting offspring but they
> will not be horned.

 

[Anonymous]

Go back and re-read the history of the Angus breed, they were selected to be polled, scurs and horns were culled when they showed up. As with any genetic base, you can't see which ones carry a recessive gene. As they occur, they need to be culled.

Than being said, we have never had a scur from our purebreds. If we ever did, the cow/bull would be culled from our program immediately.

More recently, Red Angus have had problems with scurs coming from bulls raised in the States. Somehow it seems the bred up Red Angus are finding their way into the purebred side of the herd book. I have seen supposedly Red Angus bulls that I would swear are straight Gelbvieh. Red breeders need to have the same conviction of strict culling when scurs or horns show up, many do, but some let it slide as long as they don't get caught.

Jason Trowbridge Southern Angus Farms Alberta Canada

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[Anonymous]

Hi Jason. What we did was breed some PB Red Angus cows (of course homo polled) to a hetro SMOOTH polled PB Simm bull (no scurrs on either parent and we have never had scurrs out of any of our Angus before (Canadian bred, some with black in their pedigrees). We did this to get some true Simm/Angus heifers (pure on both sides).

I have heard the explanation of the horned gene masking scurrs before but believe it isn't quite that simple. Not a big deal to most of our commercial buyers as long as the scurrs are small and the quality is there. Just curious.

> Go back and re-read the history of
> the Angus breed, they were
> selected to be polled, scurs and
> horns were culled when they showed
> up. As with any genetic base, you
> can't see which ones carry a
> recessive gene. As they occur,
> they need to be culled.

> Than being said, we have never had
> a scur from our purebreds. If we
> ever did, the cow/bull would be
> culled from our program
> immediately.

> More recently, Red Angus have had
> problems with scurs coming from
> bulls raised in the States.
> Somehow it seems the bred up Red
> Angus are finding their way into
> the purebred side of the herd
> book. I have seen supposedly Red
> Angus bulls that I would swear are
> straight Gelbvieh. Red breeders
> need to have the same conviction
> of strict culling when scurs or
> horns show up, many do, but some
> let it slide as long as they don't
> get caught.

> Jason Trowbridge Southern Angus
> Farms Alberta Canada

 

[Anonymous]

> Go back and re-read the history of
> the Angus breed, they were
> selected to be polled, scurs and
> horns were culled when they showed
> up. As with any genetic base, you
> can't see which ones carry a
> recessive gene. As they occur,
> they need to be culled.

> Than being said, we have never had
> a scur from our purebreds. If we
> ever did, the cow/bull would be
> culled from our program
> immediately.

> More recently, Red Angus have had
> problems with scurs coming from
> bulls raised in the States.
> Somehow it seems the bred up Red
> Angus are finding their way into
> the purebred side of the herd
> book. I have seen supposedly Red
> Angus bulls that I would swear are
> straight Gelbvieh. Red breeders
> need to have the same conviction
> of strict culling when scurs or
> horns show up, many do, but some
> let it slide as long as they don't
> get caught.

> Jason Trowbridge Southern Angus
> Farms Alberta Canada

Bulls who carry one or more genes for scurs will have scurs. Cows that carry only one gene for scurs will not have scurs but will pass the trait to 50% of her offspring. Scurs are passed down from the dams side not the sire. So if you use a smooth polled bull you will not breed scurs into your herd. If you use a scured bull you will breed scurs into your herd. I'm looking at a Black Angus catalog now and there are several bulls listed as 100% that have scurs. I would appreciate it if you would not make accusation about the Red Angus breed just because we have some beefy cattle (are there no beefy Black Angus?). This is the same as other breeders claiming that Black Angus have been using Chi or Holsteins to get frame and milk.

Thank You Tod Dague NTD Red Angus

 

[Anonymous]

Tod It has nothing to do with the beefyness of the cattle. It is the head shape and coloring, and the scurs. I said most red breeders were good, but there are too many scurs showing in the imported red cattle from the States, from one or two major operations that have multiple breeds mostly.

Any black Angus bull with scurs would have his registration pulled, and any red Angus bull in Canada would be subject to the same as the breeds are in the same herd book here.

To get positive results that a bull has no scurs, I have been told it requires an x-ray. They can appear to be smooth yet have the scur gene.

Jason

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[Anonymous]

Scurs are cassified as a disqualifying characteristic and an animal with them canot be registered as Category 1A, 100% Red Angus with no disqualifyinf characteristics. The can be registered as category (I think) II(2) or III(3)

dun

> Tod It has nothing to do with the
> beefyness of the cattle. It is the
> head shape and coloring, and the
> scurs. I said most red breeders
> were good, but there are too many
> scurs showing in the imported red
> cattle from the States, from one
> or two major operations that have
> multiple breeds mostly.

> Any black Angus bull with scurs
> would have his registration
> pulled, and any red Angus bull in
> Canada would be subject to the
> same as the breeds are in the same
> herd book here.

> To get positive results that a
> bull has no scurs, I have been
> told it requires an x-ray. They
> can appear to be smooth yet have
> the scur gene.

> Jason

 

[Anonymous]

> Somewhere I've read that if a bull
> sires all polled (no horns or
> scurs) calves out of a set number
> of horned cows, the bull is
> considered homozygous. Anyone know
> the number of horned cows that
> would be?

that couldn't happen because horns are a dominant gene to polls

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[Anonymous]

then it can't be homozygous because homozygous means to have matching genes for that characteristic so your supposed homozygous animal is truely a heterozygous animal

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[Anonymous]

males have the XY sexgene and the X gene is the only one that can carry the 'scurr free' gene. u can not have a heterozygous scurred bull, it must be a sufferer or a unscurred bull. but there is always a chance the FEMALE could be heterozygous, that is XS Xs. so if crossed with a Xs bull (it seems scurs is recessive), there is a 50% chance of scurred male because male progeny recieve their X chromasome from their mother. there is also a 50% chance of a scurred female.

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[Anonymous]

If the scurred gene is sex linked you can not have a heterozygous bull. this is because the males Y gene doesn't carry the genes present on the X chromasome. SO, the bull must have been a scur sufferer so all his daughters will be heterozygous. Learn your genetics before you argue about them.

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[Anonymous]

> Tod It has nothing to do with the
> beefyness of the cattle. It is the
> head shape and coloring, and the
> scurs. I said most red breeders
> were good, but there are too many
> scurs showing in the imported red
> cattle from the States, from one
> or two major operations that have
> multiple breeds mostly.

> Any black Angus bull with scurs
> would have his registration
> pulled, and any red Angus bull in
> Canada would be subject to the
> same as the breeds are in the same
> herd book here.

> To get positive results that a
> bull has no scurs, I have been
> told it requires an x-ray. They
> can appear to be smooth yet have
> the scur gene.

> Jason

no you would need a karyotype to see if he carried the gene. x-ray i guess could find physical scurs but to find the gene as i said you would need a karyotype.



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[Anonymous]

> that couldn't happen because horns
> are a dominant gene to polls you sure about that ?

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

Didn't realize I was arguing. I was just stating what had happened in our herd. Don't know much about XYZ but sure glad you set me straight. Oh by the way in regards to your ther post polled is dominant to horned.

> If the scurred gene is sex linked
> you can not have a heterozygous
> bull. this is because the males Y
> gene doesn't carry the genes
> present on the X chromasome. SO,
> the bull must have been a scur
> sufferer so all his daughters will
> be heterozygous. Learn your
> genetics before you argue about
> them.

 

[Anonymous]

> Go back and re-read the history of
> the Angus breed, they were
> selected to be polled, scurs and
> horns were culled when they showed
> up. As with any genetic base, you
> can't see which ones carry a
> recessive gene. As they occur,
> they need to be culled.

> Than being said, we have never had
> a scur from our purebreds. If we
> ever did, the cow/bull would be
> culled from our program
> immediately.

> More recently, Red Angus have had
> problems with scurs coming from
> bulls raised in the States.
> Somehow it seems the bred up Red
> Angus are finding their way into
> the purebred side of the herd
> book. I have seen supposedly Red
> Angus bulls that I would swear are
> straight Gelbvieh. Red breeders
> need to have the same conviction
> of strict culling when scurs or
> horns show up, many do, but some
> let it slide as long as they don't
> get caught.

> Jason Trowbridge Southern Angus
> Farms Alberta Canada

Jason,

Are you implying that all black Angus breeders follow the "conviction of strict culling when scurs or horns show up?"

Please don't generalize that some Red Angus breeders are not culling correctly and all black Angus breeders are culling scurred and horned cattle. I know commercial producers who buy registered BLACK Angus bulls from "reputable" breeders and are getting some horned calves.

Hmmmm...where did those horns in the Angus population come from??? Chi's? Maines? Holsteins?...

Many black Angus breeders brag about the American Angus Assn's closed herd book, but I don't think it is "closed" as much as they want to believe it is.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, I just think that folks need to hear both sides of the story.