Homo black bull on red cows......

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hillsdown

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So the thread of Mnt got me wondering ...

We are AI'ing now and I have decided to use a homo black bull (Gelbvieh) on most of my herd..I have more PB red than blacks but now I am wondering what to expect. I though the calves will all be black and that is what I was told when speaking with my semen reps but now I do not know... :? So to all of you gene experts what should I see next January when they start popping out..

BTW I chose the black bull not because he was black but because he was the best bull available for AI that I could find that was cleared for use in Canada..


Thanks.. :wave:
 

alacattleman

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now you pro's try and not get your feathers ruffled while i explain my personal experiance. i used a homo black simmental bull on red simbrah cow for 3 seasons,......and got 100% black crop every year
 

dun

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This is one of those easy ones. All the calves will be black no matter if the cows are red or black "if the bull is homozygous black". The calves from the red cows will be heterozygous black (1 red gene 1 black gene). The calves from the black cows could be either homozygous black or heterozygouz black "if the black cow carrys a red gene".
We used a heterozygouz black Gelbvieh bull on 4 red cows this year. 3 red and 1 black calves.
 

randiliana

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Yep, as long as you are talking about a 'Homo black' and not a 'double black'. Homo means he has been tested and they KNOW he is homo. Double really doesn't mean a lot, means both his parents an possibly his grandparents were all black. These ones can still carry the red gene.

Homo on red cows will give you all hetero black calves. The calves could therefore throw red calves, when they are bred.

Homo on black cows will also give you all black calves, depends on the dam whether the calves are homo or hetero though.
 
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hillsdown

hillsdown

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Thanks everyone. I was getting worried about finding some grey rat tail calves next year... :???: (have never had a rat tail calf before).

Now my next question, one black Gelbvieh I have is supposed to be homo and when bred to red she always has a black calf but this year her calf is a dark smokey grey..Now the calf is only a month old so she may still turn a dark black but if she doesn't does this mean she probably is not homo and does carry the red gene ?
 

alacattleman

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hillsdown":1daceduo said:
Thanks everyone. I was getting worried about finding some grey rat tail calves next year... :???: (have never had a rat tail calf before).
Now my next question, one black Gelbvieh I have is supposed to be homo and when bred to red she always has a black calf but this year her calf is a dark smokey grey..Now the calf is only a month old so she may still turn a dark black but if she doesn't does this mean she probably is not homo and does carry the red gene ?
not with the homo black bull...you can with a angus. the other part i cant answer as only God knows ... i got those lighter ones that turn black in my group, but you can bet the black replacements that are out of the homo simm, bull i spoke of. and have a red gene, they have coal black shiney calves from the start, angus sired
 

dun

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hillsdown":62cwtax8 said:
Now my next question, one black Gelbvieh I have is supposed to be homo and when bred to red she always has a black calf but this year her calf is a dark smokey grey..Now the calf is only a month old so she may still turn a dark black but if she doesn't does this mean she probably is not homo and does carry the red gene ?

Bull carrys the dilutoer gene would be my guess
 

randiliana

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dun":fygpwe1h said:
hillsdown":fygpwe1h said:
Now my next question, one black Gelbvieh I have is supposed to be homo and when bred to red she always has a black calf but this year her calf is a dark smokey grey..Now the calf is only a month old so she may still turn a dark black but if she doesn't does this mean she probably is not homo and does carry the red gene ?

Bull carrys the dilutoer gene would be my guess

Yep, that is most likely. Smokey is black based, so she is still passing on the black gene.

I don't know about rat tails, whether that is a problem among the Gelbveih breed or not, but depending on whether your red cows carry the diluter gene, you could certainly get some grey calves. I would be cautious about breeding light red or tannish colored cows black if I did not want any grey calves.
 

rockridgecattle

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grey...is the new silver..Canadian Cattlemens mag LOL

we have had our share of rat tails. Most were genetic related, inbreeding and then when we bred to a specific black angus bull it got worse. So scientific proof, just what we experienced in our herd.
 
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hillsdown

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Well I was thinking if she has a bull calf next year that I would keep it for my clean up bull if he looks good. If that is the case then I should have him tested for the red factor when I DNA him.

RR I didn't really read through the cattleman's issue yet. I glanced at it and got so p'd off that the thing is now 90% advertising..We at the CGA have to pay a hundred dollars a year extra so the association can advertise in it and the magazine is getting thinner all the time.. :mad:

Grey oops I mean silver is making a come back though ,a friend of ours placed first with a commercial show heifer last fall and it was the first time that anyone ever remembers a "silver" calf winning...

No rat tails in the breed that I know of. I do have one with some of her tail missing but that is because she was born last year in -40 weather and when I found her at 5am she was pretty much a calfsicle ,her ears are gone as well ..

I just brought that up because of what was posted in the other thread about rat tails and grey calves.. :lol2:

So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?
 

dun

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hillsdown":2uiqsc0j said:
So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?

If they're both homos how would they breed?
 

Cattleman200

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So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?

Im not Randi but YES ... homo on homo gets a homo.


Circle H Ranch
 
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hillsdown

hillsdown

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dun":3qwqzrzs said:
hillsdown":3qwqzrzs said:
So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?

If they're both homos how would they breed?

Well MR. Smart pants they could "breed" but it would be unsuccessful.. :p

Thanks Cattleman.. :tiphat:
 

alacattleman

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Cattleman200":3fv6ebs8 said:
So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?

Im not Randi but YES ... homo on homo gets a homo.

Circle H Ranch
yeah... we might not need too abbreviate it :cboy:
 

randiliana

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hillsdown":28gidoj1 said:
Well I was thinking if she has a bull calf next year that I would keep it for my clean up bull if he looks good. If that is the case then I should have him tested for the red factor when I DNA him.

RR I didn't really read through the cattleman's issue yet. I glanced at it and got so p'd off that the thing is now 90% advertising..We at the CGA have to pay a hundred dollars a year extra so the association can advertise in it and the magazine is getting thinner all the time.. :mad:

Grey oops I mean silver is making a come back though ,a friend of ours placed first with a commercial show heifer last fall and it was the first time that anyone ever remembers a "silver" calf winning...

No rat tails in the breed that I know of. I do have one with some of her tail missing but that is because she was born last year in -40 weather and when I found her at 5am she was pretty much a calfsicle ,her ears are gone as well ..

I just brought that up because of what was posted in the other thread about rat tails and grey calves.. :lol2:

So Randi, if I breed a homo bull to a homo cow will I get a homo calf ?

Yes you will.
 

aussie_cowgirl

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alacattleman":20rlzv6p said:
now you pro's try and not get your feathers ruffled while i explain my personal experiance. i used a homo black simmental bull on red simbrah cow for 3 seasons,......and got 100% black crop every year

Which would be because black is dominant. If you have a homozygous black bull, all your calves will be black, unless you cross it with something white (like a white shorthorn or a charolais, sometimes even a MG) because white is often co-dominant with black (giving you a roan) or its common to find diluter genes (in which case you could get a smokey grey colour sometimes.)

But rest in peace, only black calves for you :clap:
 

charangusman08

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So why is it then when you cross a angus bull and a charolais cow, you get a lighter color calf even though the bull was a homozygous black?
 

randiliana

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aussie_cowgirl":2t47z2hj said:
alacattleman":2t47z2hj said:
now you pro's try and not get your feathers ruffled while i explain my personal experiance. i used a homo black simmental bull on red simbrah cow for 3 seasons,......and got 100% black crop every year

Which would be because black is dominant. If you have a homozygous black bull, all your calves will be black, unless you cross it with something white (like a white shorthorn or a charolais, sometimes even a MG) because white is often co-dominant with black (giving you a roan) or its common to find diluter genes (in which case you could get a smokey grey colour sometimes.)

But rest in peace, only black calves for you :clap:

White is not co-dominant exactly. The roan gene, the dilutor gene, the spotting genes are all modifier genes. They simply modify whatever the base coat is. In esscence they remove color from the base coat, some remove the color completely (spots, roan), some just modify it (dilutor)
 

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