Here's to the "let them eat dirt" crowd

[Red Bull Breeder]

There you go again Butch, letting data get in the way of a story.
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Oh come Queenie ole Butches brain done froze this winter. Throwing all that outdated northern trash data out trying to look important. We all know that Kentucky is the roughest toughest place in the world to raise cattle they got to be big there to survive.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

There you go again Butch, letting data get in the way of a story.

Oh come Queenie ole Butches brain done froze this winter. Throwing all that outdated northern trash data out trying to look important. We all know that Kentucky is the roughest toughest place in the world to raise cattle they got to be big there to survive.

You reckon Kentuck cattle originate from woolly mammoths, but evolved to have less wool over the years?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

They might need a 50k test Sim.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Wye and Pharo have the Lowline Angus cattle market cornered. So Branded is trying to corner Brokehill Angus market. All it takes is money and anyone can corner the market.....at least for a while.

 

[CattleMan1920]

my cattle.... have the structure to handle their 2000 pound weights.
I've basically either read, been told, or have witnessed so many ill-fated ideas about how to raise cattle...

We don't apologize for 100-pound birth weights.
You only get one chance to get it right.... Why screw it up?

Are you sure you're not raising Simmentals?
Are you sure "not apologizing" for selling bulls siring "100 lb angus" calves is "getting it right"?

1977 black angus average birth weight 70 lbs
40 years later
2017 black angus average birth weight 76 lbs with bull calves averaging 78 lbs.

1996 MARC data Clay Center, Nebraska
hereford-angus bw 78.1 lbs
hereford-angus x Charolais sires bw 90.6 lbs

4% calf losses within 24 hrs on cows requiring little to no assistance
16% calf loss within 24 hrs when assistance was required
Calf mortality increased 0.35% for each pound of increase in birth weight.
70 day breeding season pregnancy rate 16% lower (69% vs 85%) in cows requiring assistance.

A test herd in Miles City, Montana reported 57% of all calf losses were due to dysctocia.

Top 1% angus carcass weights are 35 lbs heavier than breed average carcass weights.
IF you retain ownership it would take at least 22 top 1% steers just to replace $ loss of each
dead calf over the expected 4% average death loss with 78 lb calves.
With 100 lb bws it is next to impossible to keep calf death rate below 7% on 100 cows
and double digit losses would not be unexpected.

Even IF 4 out of 5 times a 100 pound calf is no trouble that 5th time gets awfully expensive.
Doesn't it?

My Grandfather had a lot of Charolais, he pulled calves all the time. It was the norm. He thought Angus were too small for his taste.

I'm basing what I say on my experience. We rarely pull a calf. Maybe it's nutrition, who knows, maybe management? Could be the cows.

I never said our average on every calf was 100+. If one is born at that weight, so be it, the average is more high 80's to mid 90's. If I had a 60 pound calf I would be wondering what the h.ll happened.

Pelvic size is shrinking in Angus with the stacking of low BW, high CED bulls. Few would deny that. It's a problem that will exacerbate calving problems, not help them. I don't want small heifers or cows. The big ones have far less issues with calving. I can use Net Worth, Harvestor, or International, even Black Magic on my heifers and not lose sleep. Would I use those sires on some Angus heifers that are hitting the ground these days, NO WAY! Size might not work for you which I respect, but it works for me.

One thing I never hear you all talk about is carriers, calves die from birth defects all the time which could have been prevented by using a genetically proven carrier free sire, yet people gloss over that and focus like a laser on BW. Why?

Maybe I'm OCD, but during calving season I watch my herd very closely. I don't lose too many, knock on wood. When I hear producers say 5-10% losses are ok, I cringe.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Wye and Pharo have the Lowline Angus cattle market cornered. So Branded is trying to corner Brokehill Angus market. All it takes is money and anyone can corner the market.....at least for a while.

Grit, I know a person here in Kentucky that raises miniature Angus. I thought they were messing with me until they showed me photos. They were cute little pets.

I'm not trying to take Angus back to the 1800's, but if people like em small, who am I to fault them?

Take the UK Wildcats for example, compare a photo from the 1950's team and the 2019 team. If it could be done a game between the two teams would be hilarious at best, sad at worst. The 2019 team would obliterate the 1950's team. You get the picture.

If James Lingle were here today in front of my cattle he would have thought they had appeared from another planet. My heifers just prior to calving are as big if not bigger than most of Wye's cows were on their best day.

 

[sstterry]

Take the UK Wildcats for example, compare a photo from the 1950's team and the 2019 team. If it could be done a game between the two teams would be hilarious at best, sad at worst. The 2019 team would obliterate the 1950's team. You get the picture.

But Tennessee obliterates UK 2/3rds of the time :banana:

 

[Nesikep]

last 100 calves here, 100% live births except for miscarriages.. going back to the last 150 I had one calf delivered via C section (2nd in 30 years or about 550 births). All losses associated with dystocia were from first calvers or backwards calves I didn't catch in time.. I had one really close call this year on a small heifer with a big calf, way overdue, 110 lb heifer calf on a heifer that probably didn't weigh 950 after calving... was a heck of a night, but they both are doing very well now.

If I had my druthers I'd like 80 lb calves from the heifers, but nothing on the bulls side seems to be doing much to bring down the BW's... Cows are fine with 100lb average calves so I'm not going to sweat about them.

Branded

Your cows are big, I have not been over to see them on the ground but I don't think they are "morbidly obese". They certainly carry a lot of condition and I think you are feeding them grain when you should not be. I totally agree with the speaker in that video that cattle need proper nutrition.

I had a buyer here on Saturday who bought one bred cow, 2 bulls and 5 heifers. One of the heifers he bought was the Broadway that had a birthweight of 112 pounds. You may remember the picture of her that I posted. The guy was anxious to get a heifer that size. They have over 300 cows and said they range up to 1900 pounds. His preference in a cow is 1450 to 1500 pounds but he does not shy away from larger cows.

In my experience, calves that start out at say 64 pounds, never catch up with the bigger calves.

Have you ever kept one, let her realize her potential? In the 1st pic, one of these cows was a 40 lb. preemie/subsequent orphan. In the 2nd pic, one of them was a 40 lb. 8 oz. preemie/subsequent orphan. Can you tell? (P.S. post image generally doesn't work for me so I have to copy the link).
https://i.postimg.cc/Z9ZbLFv4/IMG-20190510-081530864-HDR.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GTvgzYyn/IMG-20190510-085427276-HDR.jpg

They'll never catch up by weaning time, that is, the time that matters to cow-calf producers... Given time they eventually will
Holstein calves won't keep up with beef calves for growth by weaning either, but they'll eventually grow to be heavier as well

 

[Ebenezer]

Pelvic size is shrinking in Angus with the stacking of low BW, high CED bulls.

Why are you allowed to make such a rash statement as fact and 3 people tell about a bull that sires bad feet and it is gossip? :?:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I do agree that too many breeders are focusing on CE more than should be. Soon, they will have cows that can't have a peanut.
SOB - I don't think I have a cow in my herd that can't spit out a 100# calf. Do I want them that heavy? Heck no! But, most of my calves fall in the 90-98# range. I will have to be a Bright Raven and figure my average calf BW's. Just haven't taken the time, but I'm going to guess in the 90ish range.
In this day & age, there are numerous bulls that are CE "enough" and are ALSO growth bulls - we call them "spread bulls". W/C Executive Order is a prime example in the Simmental breed.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Brook hill, I'd really like to see some numbers from your operation. Like all your input costs, and your net profit per calf. And then pick your best cow and figure up her net profit over her lifetime, make sure you are figuring the amounts of feed in there. Along with all the basics like fuel, property taxes, so on so forth.

My guess is your way would look pretty scary. You might be a really good guy, but on the Internet you act like the 15yr old boy who is trying to gain acceptance by being a little be nice. And it's kind of hard to ignore you since you post everywhere.

I appreciate your fatherly remarks.

Seriously, would anyone on here, or elsewhere turn over their financials to you for perusal?

If I were running a strictly commercial operation with mix breed genetics, then I would probably invest all my money in a perimeter fence, and say "good luck y'all" The inputs would be minimal at best. The cheapest of everything, minerals, hay, etc. Those that don't make it, oh well.

However, that is not the operation that I am running. I'm not dealing with razor thin margins, I'm not dealing in a situation whereby when the trailer backs up to my operation, I'm at their mercy. What you are describing is a commodity business. You need economies of scale to eke out a living.

Unlike a lot of people throwing in the towel and folding their cards, I'm not leasing my land out so that a larger operator can run cattle on my farm. I'm not renting out uteruses. I'm not having to sell my replacement heifers just to keep the lights on, and I definitely don't starve my cattle to make the numbers work. S&P 500 companies fire people, then post higher quarterly earnings because they make the remaining people take pay cuts and work harder, and the stock pops, that's not how we roll at Branded. Our gals are relaxed and doing what they are supposed to, getting rare genetics on the ground safely without drama.

Again, I'm not going to share business details with you, because I prefer the Trump approach to disclosure when it comes to you guys. But in the interest of satisfying you, I will say this, my margins are entirely different than those of a commercial operation. Let's say I sell a cow/calf pair. She is of above-average stock, carrying an SAV Raindance calf inside her, bred with sexed semen, and the calf at her side is, let's say a proven son of Sydgen Enhance that someone can use as a herd sire. All the animals sold are DNA tested and proven for parentage. Now let's say you compare that to a cow-calf pair, mystery cow is bred to mystery bull, and has mystery bull calf at her side. Oh, and don't forget, they look like a Calico cat. Do you really think those two pairs will bring the same amount of money? All things being equal? C'mon you are smarter than that, I hope! A box of Cuban Montecristo's sell for a lot more than a pack of Swishers from the gas station.

Did you know that a registered, proven pair eats about the same and takes about the same land as mystery pair, yet the margins are far far better? There is a phrase called working smarter, not harder. It's up to you if you want to adhere to it.

You may not know this, but luxury brands did not go out of business in 2008, in fact, their sales soared. It was the Sears and Kmarts that were shellacked. It's a tale as old as time. Duesenberg and Packard did exceptionally well during the Great Depression, while people were lined up at soup kitchens. Packard actually fell apart when they tried to appeal to the masses. You probably didn't want a history lesson, but look at Cadillac and Lincoln. They were once the standard for quality worldwide, but now, they are super nice vehicles, but they will never have the name that Mercedes or Bentley commands.

I feel bad that I have to explain this to you like a child, but I hope this clears things up somewhat. Nothing personal, but sometimes it takes nothing short of a diagram to point out what should be obvious.

Another thing that is crazy, I was speaking with Bright Raven yesterday about bulls versus heifers and the price they command. I really wouldn't care if I ever had another bull born out here, they are basically a byproduct in many ways. I have a lot of demand for bred heifers, and by that, I mean bred AI, sexed semen, with a clear understanding that a cleanup bull is not the Daddy. If I had 200 registered heifers to sell, all bred to sexed SAV Raindance semen, I could move them in a week at a premium, not the case with 200 bulls whereby I would be at the mercy of the market. Work smart, not hard.
[/

Lol. You got it bud. I hope to meet you some day.

 

[greggy]

I am curious after reading all this, as to how they may have done things before the industrial age...i.e would it not have just been herds of cattle that pretty much did have to sort themselves out and the strong and fit survive ?

I have meat sheep, and they are probably closely related to those that had to near eat dirt & put on weight and survive, after a short time with cattle, it seems there is a lot of meddling, or, maybe it is a case more of cross breeds and people not allowing a heifer to reach proper breeding size.

Is my thinking wrong in that a good heifer or cow should be able to give birth unassisted to any decent bull of same breed ? I can understand on the first calf why caution and trying to make sure calf would be smaller may be wise, but thereafter ?

I am probably missing some important differences between sheep and cattle too, as I read this, I have a Jersey x Angus Heifer that is a bit over 12 months and growing well, but boy does she have a skinny rump, but this can't be how to judge how she will perform ?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There are still tons of different management systems that each individual will "swear by" for best results. Some won't even think of breeding a heifer to calve other than at 24 months of age - others 30 months - others 36 months. If you are going to have successful calving, each management requires different feed programs or ENVIRONMENTS. If you don't have good pastures, and you don't supplement your growing replacement heifers, you most likely will have to wait until they are older for breeding/calving.
I personally believe in growing them and calving at 24 months of age. I do not believe in breeding to super small/easy calving type bulls. I expect my 24 month old heifers to be able to have an 80-90+ pound calf. I don't breed heifers to "cow killer bulls", but easy to moderate type.

As to your Jersey x Angus heifer - she is showing the dairy traits with the skinny rump. With the Jersey in her, she may have a small pelvic area - I'm not real familiar with their traits. This is something some breeders have checked on all their heifers. I have never had my heifers Pelvic Measured.

 

[76 Bar]

Don't know what is considered supplementation for heifers. 4 plus decades of weaning them, kicking them out to less than hospitable environs and expecting them to be 65% of their mature weight by breeding time & pregnant to calve by a reasonable calving ease, moderate growth bull by their 2nd birthday has worked for me. IMO, emphasis the first time around should be a no muss no fuss coupon.
Dairy phenotype aside, its my understanding purebred Jersey's are universally renowned for excellent calving ease. YMMV with an Angus cross.

 

[greybeard]

I am curious after reading all this, as to how they may have done things before the industrial age...i.e would it not have just been herds of cattle that pretty much did have to sort themselves out and the strong and fit survive ?

Self culling... In much of the South and Southwest, cow herds ran loose in great numbers to fend for themselves....till people like Goodnight and Loving (and lots of others) gathered them and started driving them to railheads and stockyards. Those wild cows that couldn't calve unassisted died. The end of open range and barbed wire changed a lot of that, tho there are still big ranches around that the mommas are pretty much on their on most of the year.

Is my thinking wrong in that a good heifer or cow should be able to give birth unassisted to any decent bull of same breed ? I can understand on the first calf why caution and trying to make sure calf would be smaller may be wise, but thereafter ?

For the most part, the breed difference in cow & bull should be of minimal effect, tho there are always exceptions, just as it isn't at all unheard of for a cow that has already successfully calved several times, to suddenly have trouble with one..

 

[cowrancher75]

cattle have been grazing the earth for 25 million years.


hopefully we can mess them up real good

 

[CattleMan1920]

cattle have been grazing the earth for 25 million years.


hopefully we can mess them up real good

They are domesticated now. Deer are still available to raise however, if you want wild.

My dogs descended from wolves but they don't act like wolves.

I don't think you would want to raise cattle from 25 million years ago. I could be wrong.

 

[greggy]

Some peoples dogs still act wild.

It is not a matter of ancient cattle, well not what I was asking about, it is about having cattle that do well when they are pretty much left to own devices, or, even if doing what I am doing and hand feeding, doing well and not needing me as a crutch, if that makes sense.

 

[TexasBred]

I am curious after reading all this, as to how they may have done things before the industrial age...i.e would it not have just been herds of cattle that pretty much did have to sort themselves out and the strong and fit survive ?

I have meat sheep, and they are probably closely related to those that had to near eat dirt & put on weight and survive, after a short time with cattle, it seems there is a lot of meddling, or, maybe it is a case more of cross breeds and people not allowing a heifer to reach proper breeding size.

Is my thinking wrong in that a good heifer or cow should be able to give birth unassisted to any decent bull of same breed ? I can understand on the first calf why caution and trying to make sure calf would be smaller may be wise, but thereafter ?

I am probably missing some important differences between sheep and cattle too, as I read this, I have a Jersey x Angus Heifer that is a bit over 12 months and growing well, but boy does she have a skinny rump, but this can't be how to judge how she will perform ?

She has a skinny rump when you consider the angus half of her genetics but it's probably a perfect little rump for the jersey half of her. :nod:

 

[greggy]

Maybe it does not automatically have much to do with calving anyway ?