Here's some color for you......

[Rustler9]

BT Coyote Moon-WD Shenandoah Conquest x J-7 Riverwide Bridgett DOB 7/17/2006

 

[bigbull338]

thats a fine looking bull.

 

[TexasBred]

Would make a gorgeous pair of boots. Great color. :clap:

 

[LoveMoo11]

Nice bull and nice coloring! Handsome fella.

 

[talldog]

That's what I'm talking about !!!!!!!

 

[KNERSIE]

What do you expect from this bull in your breeding program?

 

[Rustler9]

Probably not the same thing you would expect in yours. He should throw alot of color and horn. Those are some of the things that we breed for in this breed. I will get another shot so that you can see his body better, he's actually not a badly built bull. But, he is pure Longhorn, not bred up with other blood as some are.

 

[alacattleman]

Probably not the same thing you would expect in yours. He should throw alot of color and horn. Those are some of the things that we breed for in this breed. I will get another shot so that you can see his body better, he's actually not a badly built bull. But, he is pure Longhorn, not bred up with other blood as some are.

since you mentioned that, what breed do most use too bulk em up and keep the color and not be too obvious

 

[Rustler9]

Well, I see some show cattle that have some Simm or Limi thrown in. I actually know of some that have done that. This gives them big rumps but takes the horns down in size. I have nothing against cross breeding but call it a cross if you do it. On the other hand, some cheaters have sneaked Afrikander and watusi in to get bigger horns. That has an impact way on down the line, to me it's ruining the breed.

 

[KNERSIE]

Probably not the same thing you would expect in yours. He should throw alot of color and horn. Those are some of the things that we breed for in this breed. I will get another shot so that you can see his body better, he's actually not a badly built bull. But, he is pure Longhorn, not bred up with other blood as some are.

No reason to get defensive, you posted a photo and instead of me pulling him apart I decided to rather ask what you expect from him so I can understand your way of thinking better. Thank you for answering, we breed for opposite ends of the spectrum, but it doesn't mean we can't have a conversation.

 

[Australian]

Rustler I agree with you. Infiltration by any other breeds into a pure breed is criminal. All the predominance of black breeds especially in the US has me worried for the future of Simmental, Limousin,Maine Anjou and Chianina. Here in Australia black has been used but in a more regulated way it seems. I don't blame any one for wanting to cash in on the "black" fad but breeders should be cautious when buying from these breeders. you wouldn't really know what you are going to get when they start throwing back to any of the "rogue breeds that have been tossed in. Good attributes of the parent breed will be diminished the longer these breeds are bred on.

 

[talldog]

People like Roger is what every Rancher should strive for--- The Breed !!
If it's a cross---Call it a cross--- You doing the beed NO GOOD !! :nod: :nod:

 

[Ryan]

Man alive, I didn't want to get involved in this... but...

Well, I see some show cattle that have some Simm or Limi thrown in. I actually know of some that have done that.

Who does this? Can you give names or examples, as fact not assumption, where this has happened?

This gives them big rumps but takes the horns down in size. I have nothing against cross breeding but call it a cross if you do it. On the other hand, some cheaters have sneaked Afrikander and watusi in to get bigger horns. That has an impact way on down the line, to me it's ruining the breed.

Got any proof of this so-called crossbreeding? Many people have breeding for a certain goal for a longtime, to call them liars/cheaters/crossbreeders is an extremely strong claim. Just because a breeder does not emphasize horn, does not mean they are crossbreeding. Maybe they are focused on the TRUE heritage of the Texas Longhorn: BEEF.

Also, most of the breeders who select for horn, it is obvious when looking at the rest of the body. It is very easy to get these incredible horns when selecting ONLY for horns.

Am I naive or blind and thing that there is NO crossbreeding? Not in the slightest, but I don't go spouting off on the internet or to other breeders saying that people crossbreeding. I especially wouldn't do it if I was a few states away from the VAST majority of the Texas Longhorn breeders and functions, and only attend a very few of these functions or have NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN THE SHOW CIRCUIT IN TEXAS.

The breeding for strictly for horn AND color is the 2nd quickest way to ruin an animal/herd/breed. The 1st quickest? Breeding strictly for horn OR color (single-trait selection). What makes actively selecting for one or both of those traits even worse is that they play ZERO part in production/performance/nutrient utilization/etc... Sure, they have marketability, but only to other longhorn breeders, which in comparison to the ENTIRE beef and cattle industry, is VERY VERY small.

Ryan

 

[Ryan]

People like Roger is what every Rancher should strive for--- The Breed !!

I disagree very strongly.

People that actively propagate the genetics of animals that are structurally INCORRECT, and try to sound the alarm against other breeders who are succesful by calling them liars/cheaters/crossbreeders with ZERO proof, I say not only is that bad for the Texas Longhorn breed, it is bad for ANY breed.

Ryan

 

[Rustler9]

Ryan,
You certainly seem to take this personally. I don't really know why you get so defensive about this. I certainly did not imply anything about your cattle so I guess I'm a little confused as to why you would take this to heart. You are not the only person with a show string in this breed. With you being so involved in the show circuit I would certainly think that you of all people would know who is doing this. So please don't play that with me. I am also not so stupid to say anyone's name on a public site. I see certain individual's cattle who show all the signs of other blood and you're bound to as well. This is alo evident in some big horn programs as well. I believe that other breeders concentrate on the beef side of the breed as well. Certain families or blood lines of this breed were founded on the cattle's ability to produce beef. These cattle also had respectable horns as well. When an individual concentrates solely on one trait it shows in the product. Cattle that don't have the minimum amount of horn required by the association's breed standards certainly would come into question by anyone who is a breeder and even those who may not know anything about the breed. When they start looking like something else there's usually a reason.

You say that you concentrate on the beef animal as they were meant to be and I certainly think that this is true in your case. There's no argument here-your cattle that I've seen ceratinly have a great conformation. I don't see any of your cattle offered at public sales. Just wondering where you market them? Do you sell breeding stock and show prospects private treaty? I would suppose you do. So what happens to the rest of the cattle? Do you sell them across the scales or have a beef market for them? We all have our purpose for breeding these animals and with your program and the people who you work for it's quite evidnet that it has been a successful one.

 

[Rustler9]

Ryan wrote

I disagree very strongly.

People that actively propagate the genetics of animals that are structurally INCORRECT, and try to sound the alarm against other breeders who are succesful by calling them liars/cheaters/crossbreeders with ZERO proof, I say not only is that bad for the Texas Longhorn breed, it is bad for ANY breed.

I did not say anything against your cattle so you have no reason for such kind comments. But you know I always heard that old phrase about "if the shoe fits wear it". Kind of sounds like it just might be a fit.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan,
You certainly seem to take this personally. I don't really know why you get so defensive about this. I certainly did not imply anything about your cattle so I guess I'm a little confused as to why you would take this to heart. You are not the only person with a show string in this breed. With you being so involved in the show circuit I would certainly think that you of all people would know who is doing this. So please don't play that with me. I am also not so stupid to say anyone's name on a public site. I see certain individual's cattle who show all the signs of other blood and you're bound to as well. This is alo evident in some big horn programs as well. I believe that other breeders concentrate on the beef side of the breed as well. Certain families or blood lines of this breed were founded on the cattle's ability to produce beef. These cattle also had respectable horns as well. When an individual concentrates solely on one trait it shows in the product. Cattle that don't have the minimum amount of horn required by the association's breed standards certainly would come into question by anyone who is a breeder and even those who may not know anything about the breed. When they start looking like something else there's usually a reason.

I take it personally, because I know many breeders who have worked DECADES to get where they are today without crossbreeding, ALL THE WHILE have people who have NEVER set foot on their property to actually learn about their breeding program sit far off and accuse them of cheating, crossbreeding, lieing about age or whatever the case may be. Like I said before, I am not blind nor am I so naive to think that crossbreeding hasn't been done in the past nor do I believe it is not going on currently. HOWEVER, I do believe it is improper to throw around wild and vague accusations with ZERO evidence or proof to back up those accusations. I know too many people that have poured everything they have into creating better animals in this breed without crossbreeding, and I HAVE been at the shows the past 20 years to see the development and evolution of the breed into one that is starting to be able to routinely and consistently produce animals that WILL work from a commercial production standpoint. And not just a commercial standpoint of using cheap longhorn cows with charolais bulls and weaning the calf before it starts to look like a longhorn. BUT animals that can take care of themselves and raise calves that ANYONE would be proud to haul to town.

There is NO minimum horn requirement in the TLBAA. Under the subject for Horns in the TLBAA Breed Guidelines has Four categories: Superior, Desirable, Acceptable and Undesirable. Nowhere does it mention Requirements. Also, these are Guidelines, not rules for registrations. So if someone wants to raise animals that are structurally sound, very efficient, have high performance yet lack in the horn department, they can. The cattle of these families that "..were founded on the cattle's ability to produce beef. These cattle also had respectable horns as well..." What do you mean by respectable horns? Was it in the mid to early 80's when 40" horns on a bull meant he was one the top horned bulls in the breed? You must also realize when looking at longhorn cattle, that say 45" of horn on a 650lb cow looks a whole lot different than 45" of horn on a 1300 lb cow. So when looking back through the old Trails magazines and Journal magazines and Texas Longhorn Scene magazines, remember that looking at a cow with "respectable horns" is relative to body size and horn shape, among other things. "Respectable horns" is very relative, and of personal preference. Structure, production and performance is not personal preference. It is something that is tangible and measurible.

It takes a lot of work, time, energy, resources and knowledge to increase the overall quality of animal without resorting to crossbreeding. That is why I take it personally. I have spent A LOT of time and energy creating the best Texas Longhorns I can with what I have to work with. When i see someone accuse my fellow breeders of crossbreeding without ANY proof, I feel the need to back them up. I would do this no matter who was making the accusations.

Ryan

 

[Ryan]

You say that you concentrate on the beef animal as they were meant to be and I certainly think that this is true in your case. There's no argument here-your cattle that I've seen ceratinly have a great conformation. I don't see any of your cattle offered at public sales. Just wondering where you market them? Do you sell breeding stock and show prospects private treaty? I would suppose you do. So what happens to the rest of the cattle? Do you sell them across the scales or have a beef market for them? We all have our purpose for breeding these animals and with your program and the people who you work for it's quite evidnet that it has been a successful one.

We do not offer animals at public sales, correct. The public sales are rarely attended by the breeders we market our animals to. We ABSOLUTELY sell animals as show and breeding stock to other breeders and exhibitors at Private Treaty.

The rest of our animals?

All bulls that we do not feel are quality enough to keep for OURSELVES we castrate. After castration we then decide if we need anymore steers, sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. If we do not keep them as steer prospects they are sent across the scales and therefore out of the system. We are VERY strict on bulls, and we feel all should. A bad bull can quickly ruin a herd and/or calf crop.

Females are little bit different. Although we are still very strict on our females, we approach them a touch differently. Over the past few years we have sold such a high number that our cow herd had taken a hit. Between selling pairs, 3-in-1's and heifers we were getting to a point where we were having a hard time keeping back enough replacement females AND being able to sell females to get the genetics of our herd into other herds in the industry. Therefore, we kept back a larger number of heifers the past 2 years than we normally would have, by not offering them for sale at all. We have now gotten back to a herd size where we are comfortable selling as many heifer calves as we want to by private treaty, and not having to worry as much about maintaining our own herd size. Still if any females are weaned and we do not feel they are of the quality that we demand for our herd, they are sent across the scales without papers and are "out of the system."

Due to our intense culling throughout the years, demand for continual high production from our animals and procuring the BEST animals in the breed for our goals, we have created a market for our animals. One of the main reasons is that we have put a premium on animals that not only get better with age (in other words: don't fall apart after a year - which many show animals in any breed do), but also they produce.

So where do all the other animals go? If they are not of the quality we demand for our own herd, they are sent across the scales. The rest are sent into our herd or the herds of other breeders. We do not run a large operation, therefore even more emphasis is put on quality. We are doing the best we can to attain our goal of raising the best Texas Longhorn we can, and increasing the consistecy of the next generation.

I do thank you very much for calling our program a successful one.

Ryan