Hereford who is black

[Ky hills]

Well, the black-hided craze is due to the CAB program, which is a stroke of marketing genius, and has done wonders for Angus growers. No telling how many family farms and ranches it has saved. Literally. The small -time calf-operations make more money, and it even helped the dairy famers get more for their 1st time heifers' calves. I think it is awesome, that a man can sell 100,000 lbs of black steers and make $10k to $20k more money for them than his neighbor with 100,000 lbs of hereford or shorthorn or Charolais steers on the same pasture ,hay, feed etc. And the great thing is, that hereford or shorthorn rancher could simply put a homozygous Black angus bull on those cows, and he'd get that extra $10k-$20k for HIS 100.000 bs of steers as well. Only he'd get them quicker and with fewer head, than the pure Angus rancher would. And that Angus grower? He'd see the neighbor get there quicker with less head, and he could get a hereford, or shorthorn, or whatever bull, and he'd get there quicker with less head too. So, nothing wrong with the CAB or the marketing program by AAA. Only thing anyone can say about that is "Thank you". What the problem is, the OTHER breed associations trying to turn their breed black. They have turned most of the Continental breeds, into just Angus cross breds. diluting the genetic characteristics that used to maximize hybrid vigor. What they SHOULD have done, is bred to improve their breed's traits that make them a good cross on Angus. Market the reasons why a Simmental or Gelbiev or Hereford bull is the beat cross on Angus. Market the Limousine or
Shorthorn as THE best cows to breed your Angus bull too. So, I am actually agreeing with you. KY Hills, in this reply.

Yes we are in agreement, that all of the breeds should maintain their strong points and that crossbreeding can compliment a breeding program.
As for the appreciation of AAA and CAB, that depends on which side of the fence your standing on. I have said before and have no problem saying that CAB is a good product and I have recommended it to others before. It is the best alternative that I know of that is fairly widely available, if someone doesn't have their own beef. I also maintain that CAB is not as consistent quality of product as many would want to believe, and I definitely prefer our beef regardless of breed likely due in large part to how it's finished.
I readily admit that CAB is a successful marketing strategy, and a crock all at the same time. The words "Thank you" are words I will never say in regards to CAB.
From what I can tell the rise of CAB coincided with the perfect storm so to speak. That time period was during the frame race, in which you could go to a cattle show and all breeds looked like Chianina cattle bodies with different color hair according to the respective breed. Those resulting feeder steers finished out at huge sizes if they really did get properly finished. The replacement females from those large framed cattle lacked milk and fertility and took too supplementation to keep in any kind of shape. Soon the new trend and buzzword would start out of necessity "Moderate frame". There were likely enough rank and file Angus breeders that didn't jump into the cesspool of outside blood or wade too far out in it for their herds, that they could capitalize on the moderate frame bandwagon. The AAA marketing at the time was akin to scorched earth strategy. People with other breeds in large part didn't have the option of trying to continue with their herds the way things were. I had registered Charolais during that time. About the time I was building up a customer base, the rug was yanked out from under me, and I fell hard. I was AI breeding cows to Charolais bulls the equivalent of SAV America, at the time. Almost overnight, those calves were out of favor and worth docked stockyard prices. There was no market and no way to continue putting that money and effort that herd. There are many many stories like that. A lot of herds a lot longer running and higher quality than mine were dispersed or turned commercial and bred out.
The ultimate insult to injury is that a lot of the black hided and Angus herds that were springing up were lesser quality than the long running Hereford or Charolais etc, that they were replacing.
I have used Angus bulls for 20 some years, I can honestly say that the CAB premiums mean nothing to me, maybe they do to some larger breeders that can sell a pot load at a time to a buyer for that market. The only benefit that I can see is that if everything lines up and the Angus calves have enough frame to not get docked as fleshy or short then they will bring more than our Hereford calves per pound.

 

[Warren Allison]

Yes we are in agreement, that all of the breeds should maintain their strong points and that crossbreeding can compliment a breeding program.
As for the appreciation of AAA and CAB, that depends on which side of the fence your standing on. I have said before and have no problem saying that CAB is a good product and I have recommended it to others before. It is the best alternative that I know of that is fairly widely available, if someone doesn't have their own beef. I also maintain that CAB is not as consistent quality of product as many would want to believe, and I definitely prefer our beef regardless of breed likely due in large part to how it's finished.
I readily admit that CAB is a successful marketing strategy, and a crock all at the same time. The words "Thank you" are words I will never say in regards to CAB.
From what I can tell the rise of CAB coincided with the perfect storm so to speak. That time period was during the frame race, in which you could go to a cattle show and all breeds looked like Chianina cattle bodies with different color hair according to the respective breed. Those resulting feeder steers finished out at huge sizes if they really did get properly finished. The replacement females from those large framed cattle lacked milk and fertility and took too supplementation to keep in any kind of shape. Soon the new trend and buzzword would start out of necessity "Moderate frame". There were likely enough rank and file Angus breeders that didn't jump into the cesspool of outside blood or wade too far out in it for their herds, that they could capitalize on the moderate frame bandwagon. The AAA marketing at the time was akin to scorched earth strategy. People with other breeds in large part didn't have the option of trying to continue with their herds the way things were. I had registered Charolais during that time. About the time I was building up a customer base, the rug was yanked out from under me, and I fell hard. I was AI breeding cows to Charolais bulls the equivalent of SAV America, at the time. Almost overnight, those calves were out of favor and worth docked stockyard prices. There was no market and no way to continue putting that money and effort that herd. There are many many stories like that. A lot of herds a lot longer running and higher quality than mine were dispersed or turned commercial and bred out.
The ultimate insult to injury is that a lot of the black hided and Angus herds that were springing up were lesser quality than the long running Hereford or Charolais etc, that they were replacing.
I have used Angus bulls for 20 some years, I can honestly say that the CAB premiums mean nothing to me, maybe they do to some larger breeders that can sell a pot load at a time to a buyer for that market. The only benefit that I can see is that if everything lines up and the Angus calves have enough frame to not get docked as fleshy or short then they will bring more than our Hereford calves per pound.

Well, at the grocery stores around here, there is both beef and CAB beef, from ground to prime rib, and consumers will buy the cheaper non- CAB product. If they didn't, then the stores wouldn't have it. And, there wasn't then, and isn't now, any laws stopping someone from creating a Certified Hereford Beef, or Certified Charolais Beef, etc, marketing program. Wagyu has done this. The CAB program helped 100,000's of thousands of people like my grandfather who had 10, 20, 30 head cow-calf farms, who all through the 60's and 70's, didn't get as much for their 6 mos old Angus calves as the Charolais, Hereford and Simmental famers and ranchers did, because their calves were smaller at the same age. After CAB took off, they got more money per pound, than those other guys did with red, white, roan etc calves did. Some of those other farmers who wanted to make more, switched over to black cows. Some just switched to angus bulls , and got cross bred black calves. But, there were farmers who weren't necessarily in it for the money.. they just liked the looks of their red or white or red & white cows. Or their Longhorns or Brahmas. So they kept on , and are keeping on, raising them. Haven't heard of many, though, begrudging the success of their neighbors with black cattle. Like I said, the only negative I see in the CAB program, is all of these other breeds turning into Angus crosses. Hell, unless we can gain a vetoproof majority in the House and Senate in 2022, the Democrats are going to outlaw cows anyway. Hey, here's a thought! Someone ought to look into developing a breed of cattle that is fart-less!! LOL

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison I think you missed my point. I don't begrudge folks for having Angus or black cattle, all my neighbors have them or a majority of their cows are, heck half of mine are and i have some Angus bulls too. One of my points of contention with the marketing of CAB is that most small operators don't see those premiums that are bragged about, the difference that they do see with black calves is they don't get the dock that some others do if they are the type and kind that are desired. There is a Certified Hereford Beef CHB, we do sell some calves in a sale that is geared to that, but the problem is only 2 of those sales here in the state a year and they don't line up well with my calving/weaning schedule. At those sales Hereford calves typically sell about as good as the best of anything else. The other breeds cannot and could not compete with the numbers of Angus and the money that is behind them, that is why their are no other comparable size and scale programs. I've said what I have to say and I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[elkwc]

Well, at the grocery stores around here, there is both beef and CAB beef, from ground to prime rib, and consumers will buy the cheaper non- CAB product. If they didn't, then the stores wouldn't have it. And, there wasn't then, and isn't now, any laws stopping someone from creating a Certified Hereford Beef, or Certified Charolais Beef, etc, marketing program. Wagyu has done this. The CAB program helped 100,000's of thousands of people like my grandfather who had 10, 20, 30 head cow-calf farms, who all through the 60's and 70's, didn't get as much for their 6 mos old Angus calves as the Charolais, Hereford and Simmental famers and ranchers did, because their calves were smaller at the same age. After CAB took off, they got more money per pound, than those other guys did with red, white, roan etc calves did. Some of those other farmers who wanted to make more, switched over to black cows. Some just switched to angus bulls , and got cross bred black calves. But, there were farmers who weren't necessarily in it for the money.. they just liked the looks of their red or white or red & white cows. Or their Longhorns or Brahmas. So they kept on , and are keeping on, raising them. Haven't heard of many, though, begrudging the success of their neighbors with black cattle. Like I said, the only negative I see in the CAB program, is all of these other breeds turning into Angus crosses. Hell, unless we can gain a vetoproof majority in the House and Senate in 2022, the Democrats are going to outlaw cows anyway. Hey, here's a thought! Someone ought to look into developing a breed of cattle that is fart-less!! LOL

When you made the statement a out someone could create Certified Hereford beef you just showed you have no idea what you are making statements about. There has been CHB for several years

 

[Muddy]

@Warren Allison I think you missed my point. I don't begrudge folks for having Angus or black cattle, all my neighbors have them or a majority of their cows are, heck half of mine are and i have some Angus bulls too. One of my points of contention with the marketing of CAB is that most small operators don't see those premiums that are bragged about, the difference that they do see with black calves is they don't get the dock that some others do if they are the type and kind that are desired. There is a Certified Hereford Beef CHB, we do sell some calves in a sale that is geared to that, but the problem is only 2 of those sales here in the state a year and they don't line up well with my calving/weaning schedule. At those sales Hereford calves typically sell about as good as the best of anything else. The other breeds cannot and could not compete with the numbers of Angus and the money that is behind them, that is why their are no other comparable size and scale programs. I've said what I have to say and I'll leave it at that for now.

Sad thing is that CHB never expanding their business around the United States. We have no CHB buyers or any feedlots for CHB or holding the Hereford sales. That's why they're falling behind. I've seen different brands of Angus beef at various stores but never a CHB brand.

 

[Warren Allison]

When you made the statement a out someone could create Certified Hereford beef you just showed you have no idea what you are making statements about. There has been CHB for several years

Well, Skippy, your smart-ass reply just proved my point. Never in my life have I seen CHB at Kroger. Never seen a commercial about Hereford beef, narrated by Sam Elliot, on TV. If there is a CHB program, it is a closely guarded secret, I guess known only to Association members. 99.999% of people in the US are like me...they have never heard of Certified Hereford beef. So, while the CHB may exist theoretically, in actuality I am correct. Where as, there is virtually NO ONE in the US, who hasn't heard of, or seen in a store, or eaten in a restaurant...Black Angus beef. 99.999% of people who live in NYC even...that have never seen a cow in a pasture, knows what Angus beef is.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison I think you missed my point. I don't begrudge folks for having Angus or black cattle, all my neighbors have them or a majority of their cows are, heck half of mine are and i have some Angus bulls too. One of my points of contention with the marketing of CAB is that most small operators don't see those premiums that are bragged about, the difference that they do see with black calves is they don't get the dock that some others do if they are the type and kind that are desired. There is a Certified Hereford Beef CHB, we do sell some calves in a sale that is geared to that, but the problem is only 2 of those sales here in the state a year and they don't line up well with my calving/weaning schedule. At those sales Hereford calves typically sell about as good as the best of anything else. The other breeds cannot and could not compete with the numbers of Angus and the money that is behind them, that is why their are no other comparable size and scale programs. I've said what I have to say and I'll leave it at that for now.

Dunno that is a "dock" for the non-black calves, so much as it is a premium paid for CAB qualified cattle. Back in the 60's and 70's, going to the cow sale just about every Saturday with my grandpa, red, black, white or whatever calves, of the same size and same quality, brought the same amount of money. After the CAB took off, the blacks just brought more. The others still brought...and bring today... what they were worth, the blacks just bring more because they are worth more. But, the great thing is, anyone experiencing that "dock", doesn't have to. They do so by choice. The way the CAB is structured, a rancher can get the same premiums paid for his calves from his Hereford, or Red Angus, or Simmental, or Gelbiev, or crayon box cows. Just breed them to a reg BA bull! And what a market for CE reg Hereford, Simmental, etc bulls. Breed these to your black angus cows, and get calves that will wean off bigger than your purebred Angus calves due to hybrid vigor. A hybrid vigor that has been diminished, with the turning of the Simmentals, Limousines, Gelbievs, etc, into just cross-=bred black Angus.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well, Skippy, your smart-ass reply just proved my point. Never in my life have I seen CHB at Kroger. Never seen a commercial about Hereford beef, narrated by Sam Elliot, on TV. If there is a CHB program, it is a closely guarded secret, I guess known only to Association members. 99.999% of people in the US are like me...they have never heard of Certified Hereford beef. So, while the CHB may exist theoretically, in actuality I am correct. Where as, there is virtually NO ONE in the US, who hasn't heard of, or seen in a store, or eaten in a restaurant...Black Angus beef. 99.999% of people who live in NYC even...that have never seen a cow in a pasture, knows what Angus beef is.

It was marketing genius being a scam to boot. The bovine can have zero Angus DNA and still qualify for CAB, first it must have 51% black hide and Angus like qualities,Holstein can qualify. It was a way to market Angus beef and it took off like a carnival ride as a way to market Angus bulls.I have an Angus bull standing in the pasture as well.
The Angus people had the only half way known black hide at the time. It was and always been about black hide.

 

[Ky hills]

Dunno that is a "dock" for the non-black calves, so much as it is a premium paid for CAB qualified cattle. Back in the 60's and 70's, going to the cow sale just about every Saturday with my grandpa, red, black, white or whatever calves, of the same size and same quality, brought the same amount of money. After the CAB took off, the blacks just brought more. The others still brought...and bring today... what they were worth, the blacks just bring more because they are worth more. But, the great thing is, anyone experiencing that "dock", doesn't have to. They do so by choice. The way the CAB is structured, a rancher can get the same premiums paid for his calves from his Hereford, or Red Angus, or Simmental, or Gelbiev, or crayon box cows. Just breed them to a reg BA bull! And what a market for CE reg Hereford, Simmental, etc bulls. Breed these to your black angus cows, and get calves that will wean off bigger than your purebred Angus calves due to hybrid vigor. A hybrid vigor that has been diminished, with the turning of the Simmentals, Limousines, Gelbievs, etc, into just cross-=bred black Angus.

Dunno that is a "dock" for the non-black calves, so much as it is a premium paid for CAB qualified cattle. Back in the 60's and 70's, going to the cow sale just about every Saturday with my grandpa, red, black, white or whatever calves, of the same size and same quality, brought the same amount of money. After the CAB took off, the blacks just brought more. The others still brought...and bring today... what they were worth, the blacks just bring more because they are worth more. But, the great thing is, anyone experiencing that "dock", doesn't have to. They do so by choice. The way the CAB is structured, a rancher can get the same premiums paid for his calves from his Hereford, or Red Angus, or Simmental, or Gelbiev, or crayon box cows. Just breed them to a reg BA bull! And what a market for CE reg Hereford, Simmental, etc bulls. Breed these to your black angus cows, and get calves that will wean off bigger than your purebred Angus calves due to hybrid vigor. A hybrid vigor that has been diminished, with the turning of the Simmentals, Limousines, Gelbievs, etc, into just cross-=bred black Angus.

I have spent quite a bit of time at numerous stockyards as well, and have bought and sold, maybe not the volume that some speak of here but still enough to know what I am seeing here. The dock is real, the premiums are certainly not reliable at least not here on the stockyard scene. The only premiums and sometimes thats debatable are for value added calves ie, weaned and vaccinated. Yes, its a choice to raise whatever kind of cattle we do, but it isn't the same. If I want straight Herefords i get a dock, where as if I breed to Angus bulls which I don't like near as well on average it is a trade off. I may get a better price at sale time, but then have to deal with calves that are much more spirited and harder to work, and bulls that are the same and harder to contain on average. So I have to make a choice that is not that great in the long run for us. There are also some areas of the country, not here usually but in some places there have been times where even BWF calves have been sorted off groups of solid black calves, so there is always going to be ways of getting docked even with calves that would qualify for CAB at point down the road.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have spent quite a bit of time at numerous stockyards as well, and have bought and sold, maybe not the volume that some speak of here but still enough to know what I am seeing here. The dock is real, the premiums are certainly not reliable at least not here on the stockyard scene. The only premiums and sometimes thats debatable are for value added calves ie, weaned and vaccinated. Yes, its a choice to raise whatever kind of cattle we do, but it isn't the same. If I want straight Herefords i get a dock, where as if I breed to Angus bulls which I don't like near as well on average it is a trade off. I may get a better price at sale time, but then have to deal with calves that are much more spirited and harder to work, and bulls that are the same and harder to contain on average. So I have to make a choice that is not that great in the long run for us. There are also some areas of the country, not here usually but in some places there have been times where even BWF calves have been sorted off groups of solid black calves, so there is always going to be ways of getting docked even with calves that would qualify for CAB at point down the road.

What is even more ironic is the Angus people will tell Brahman is bad. They comprise over 40% of the US herd, last I read it was like 70% influence world herd.

 

[Ky hills]

What is even more ironic is the Angus people will tell Brahman is bad. They comprise over 40% of the US herd, last I read it was like 70% influence world herd.

Yes you are right, the Angus propagandists have a spill of rhetoric about any breed and how bad they are. I personally think some Brahman influence is beneficial in a herd. I don't believe the crap about no percentage of Brahman will ever marble that I have heard them say. The folks saying that stuff have no proof of what they are saying just repeating some spill they've heard.

 

[Warren Allison]

What is even more ironic is the Angus people will tell Brahman is bad. They comprise over 40% of the US herd, last I read it was like 70% influence world herd.

I dunno about ALL Angus people. Heck, they developed the Brangus. And down here, especially south of me, Brangus cattle bring as much as Angus cattle at the sale barn. While most of the reg Ultra Blacks are being produced by Brangus operations, there are Angus breeders buying Brangus cattle, semen and embryos, and breeding Ultra Blacks as well. There is a guy right down the road from me, that has 3 pastures on 3 corners of the crossroads. Since I can remember, early 80's at least, he has kept about 100 Angus cows in each pasture. About 15, maybe 20 years ago, I noticed he was running Hereford bulls on them. For one or two years I noticed he had a Gelbiev or Limosine bull in one of the pastures at breeding time, but it got gone. About 10 years ago, he started getting Brangus cows whenever he replaced an angus, and moved them all to one of his 3 pastures, and bred them to his hereford bulls. And he started using Braford bulls on his Angus cows. His Herford-Brangus and Braford- Angus calves are bringing as much per lb as any at the sale. And down here, at least, F1 Brafords have a reputation as being about the best commercial momma cows there are. I had heard that too, about the percentage of Brahman -influenced cattle in the US and world wide. Wouldn;t surprise me if it was 90% or more, in South and Central America.

 

[Warren Allison]

Yes you are right, the Angus propagandists have a spill of rhetoric about any breed and how bad they are. I personally think some Brahman influence is beneficial in a herd. I don't believe the crap about no percentage of Brahman will ever marble that I have heard them say. The folks saying that stuff have no proof of what they are saying just repeating some spill they've heard.

Not doubting your word at all., KY. I respect your opinions, as they are plainly from your experiences, and carefully thought out before you offer them. I am not around cattle people from all over the country on a routine basis... my involvement with cattle at all, was always secondary to, or resulting from, or a spin-off from, my involvement with and passion for, working QHs. But, I have never heard any "angus people" say anything at all about how bad any breed is, except in the 70's when Simmental and Charolais first came to Ga, and people were losing their Angus and Herford cows and/or the calves at birth, to those giant, big-headed babies they couldn't deliver. I am also not in regular communication with any of the end-of-the line folks in the business.. the feedlots and packing plants, but I have never in my 63 years heard anyone say that ANY percentage Brahman won't marble. I have never, ever, heard of anyone's Brangus steers not marbling, or even that didn't make the CAB. Not saying that some don't, or that there are people...Angus breeders or others in the cattle industry that say they don't. Just saying I haven't heard that until today. I assume that there a dedicated breeders of other breeds, that probably sing the praises of their breed, and bad-mouth other breeds. I can't imagine a breeder of say, Charolais seed stock, harping on the negatives of Chars, while giving props and kudos to say, Limousines or Herefords. I think it is to be expected that seed stock breeders and association officers of any breed, to say their breed is better than the others. I put more in stock to what the 90% of beef cattle producers here in the US...the small farmer/rancher with a few to a few hundred commercial cows..... think. And overwhelmingly, they prefer black. And this preference is due to the performance...how these cattle work for them....more so than any dirty, underhanded, slick, yet brilliant and successful, promotion of the CAB program.

 

[elkwc]

Well, Skippy, your smart-ass reply just proved my point. Never in my life have I seen CHB at Kroger. Never seen a commercial about Hereford beef, narrated by Sam Elliot, on TV. If there is a CHB program, it is a closely guarded secret, I guess known only to Association members. 99.999% of people in the US are like me...they have never heard of Certified Hereford beef. So, while the CHB may exist theoretically, in actuality I am correct. Where as, there is virtually NO ONE in the US, who hasn't heard of, or seen in a store, or eaten in a restaurant...Black Angus beef. 99.999% of people who live in NYC even...that have never seen a cow in a pasture, knows what Angus beef is.

Well your dumb ass reply just proves you have no idea what you are talking about. It is in several stores in this area. It is offered in some restaurants. It is preferred by many over CAB. We run 100 head of commercial cows how many do you own yourself? Black Baldies sired by Hereford bulls are preferred by our buyers. They perform better than straight Angus. I've got good friends who manage feedlots and know very well what is preferred. Have you ever fed a pen?

 

[Greg]

We used to have CHB beef here about ten years ago. A meat market in Foxworth sold CHB ribeyes, hamburger, round steaks etc. Went back several times. Wish they were still in business.

 

[Warren Allison]

Well your dumb ass reply just proves you have no idea what you are talking about. It is in several stores in this area. It is offered in some restaurants. It is preferred by many over CAB. We run 100 head of commercial cows how many do you own yourself? Black Baldies sired by Hereford bulls are preferred by our buyers. They perform better than straight Angus. I've got good friends who manage feedlots and know very well what is preferred. Have you ever fed a pen?

You talk pretty big there, sonny, for someone too scared or too stupid, or both, to show their location. Your posts means nothing, trying to get people to think there are stores or restaurants in " your area", that uses this alleged Certified Hereford Beef, when no one knows where your area is to verify. I am guessing by your lack of respect and manners, it ain't from the south. Anyone who reads these forumns, regradless of how many cows they have, has probably seen the Univ. of Iowa video on heterosis , that I and several others have posted numerous times, that displays the chart showing that of the different bos taurus breeds in the US, Hereford and Angus share the least amount of DNA. Which makes this cross have the highest level of hybrid vigor. So yes, a Hereford x Angus black baldy, should wean heavier than a straight Angus. It is the BLACK in the black baldy, son, that makes black baldies sell well in most of the country. A red angus x hereford RED baldy, will be docked as badly as a straight red hereford. If we had the time, and I thought you had the money, I'd show you, boy, that I know exactly what I am talking about. If we could poll all 330 million Americans, and ask them who has heard of., or bought, or ordered at a restaurant... Certified Herford beef.... and I gave you $1000 dollar for very affirmative answer, I'd owe you maybe $3mil. at the end. And if we asked them if they had heard of, or bought at a store, Certified Angus beef, or ordered at a restaurant a Black Angus steak, and you gave me just $1 for every affirmative answer, your bovine-genius ass would owe me over $300 ,000,000.00.

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison I respect your views as well and am not responding out of anything other than a debate in a sense as we are not likely to ever see the same view through our respective lenses. From my perspective based on talking with other cattle farmers, that 90% you mention may have Angus or black hided cattle. I doubt all of them are in love necessarily with those cattle and if all things were equal they would not likely all have them then. Angus cattle have traditionally done a lot of things right, however in the quest for do it all curve benders and improved carcass traits, the mainstream of the breed has drifted away from their traditional qualities. I have been saying for years that they are a victim of their own success and it is affecting the bottom line of cow calf producers probably more than the benefits of any perceived premiums. I speak from around 20 years of experience with Angus bulls and from a project of trying to put together a herd of registered females. The reliance on EPD's and trends of following the latest AI bull of the month has led to some serious quality issues. I did a bred heifer program for 12 years in which we used CE Angus bulls. Between the heifers and our cows I had 3-4 Angus bulls at a time. Very seldom would we keep one past 2 years, if one made the cut for longer it was very rare. It was very expensive to replace them that often. Feet and leg issues were a major concern. I did not have those issues with Charolais although I know they are not immune from it. The Angus females that we had had to be culled heavily due to disposition and serious lack of fertility. In our herd on average most Herefords would be more consistent in rebreeding on time with BWF being on average a little bit behind them and some of the Angus were always hard to get rebred and calved in the summer. The trends of carcass selection and $B value which is essentially terminal traits are antagonistic to maternal traits, therefore drifting away from the traditional reliability. These are real concerns and expenses that cut into any profit margin which is slim across the entire cattle business for cow calf producers. That's why I have started not listening to the hype and propaganda of any breed and selecting for what works for this outfit. If they don't calve on time and if bulls can't cover the the premiums don't if any don't matter.

 

[Muddy]

Well Elkwc and Wilson are both correct. I think the location play it's role regarding the CHB. Obviously not all grocery stores carrying it but I know Cub Foods uses to carrying CHB few years ago. Not sure why it was discontinued. But I seen Angus beef literally everywhere... Hereford feeders do well in Omaha sale barns so I'm not sure why we cannot have any Hereford feeder sale days in Minnesota . As for the brahmanX, it is true that it made up of 40% cattle in United States but most are crossbreds and brahman influenced females are highly desired than steers. Straight brahman steers gets docked pretty bad at most sale barns. Brahma X feeders gets stressed out pretty easily than non-idicus feeders, resulting in high percentage of dark cutters in carcasses. As the old CB said before, you cannot hollering or play cowboy with brahman and they have pretty strong flight response...I'm not gonna be lying but it seems like brahmanX females are heavy preferred than brahman X steers. I realized that the brahman X steers do ended up in the feedlots but so are Holstein steers and Hereford steers

 

[elkwc]

You talk pretty big there, sonny, for someone too scared or too stupid, or both, to show their location. Your posts means nothing, trying to get people to think there are stores or restaurants in " your area", that uses this alleged Certified Hereford Beef, when no one knows where your area is to verify. I am guessing by your lack of respect and manners, it ain't from the south. Anyone who reads these forumns, regradless of how many cows they have, has probably seen the Univ. of Iowa video on heterosis , that I and several others have posted numerous times, that displays the chart showing that of the different bos taurus breeds in the US, Hereford and Angus share the least amount of DNA. Which makes this cross have the highest level of hybrid vigor. So yes, a Hereford x Angus black baldy, should wean heavier than a straight Angus. It is the BLACK in the black baldy, son, that makes black baldies sell well in most of the country. A red angus x hereford RED baldy, will be docked as badly as a straight red hereford. If we had the time, and I thought you had the money, I'd show you, boy, that I know exactly what I am talking about. If we could poll all 330 million Americans, and ask them who has heard of., or bought, or ordered at a restaurant... Certified Herford beef.... and I gave you $1000 dollar for very affirmative answer, I'd owe you maybe $3mil. at the end. And if we asked them if they had heard of, or bought at a store, Certified Angus beef, or ordered at a restaurant a Black Angus steak, and you gave me just $1 for every affirmative answer, your bovine-genius ass would owe me over $300 ,000,000.00.

First you are the first one to start the name calling. Secondly nowhere did I say CHB was as well known as CAB. You are the one that made a statement left the impression there was no CHB although it has been around for several years that I know of. Our red baldies sell with our black baldies and blacks and they sell at the top. You would be surprised where I'm from. Where I'm from has nothing to do with the fallacy you told about there being no CHB. It is evident you don't like to be corrected about your falsehoods. If you were as informed as you claim to be about the beef industry you would of known about CHB.