Hereford question

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smnherf

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cow pollinater":62ilicsa said:
Two things jump out at me after thinking about this thread a little more. No disrespect intended to anyone but in my mind they're worth considering.
For years polled cattle breeders have been telling us they are just as good as horned and I must admit that the quality has improved greatly. If polled really is just as good as horned and the horns are a no go then why would you not just stick with polled bulls? There are enough out there of seemingly good quality that you shouldn't feel the need to use a horned bull unless you felt they had something that your cattle lacked.
If you're willing to works so hard to educate people, why not just tell them why you chose to use a horned bull?

Its called breed improvement. Having the ability to remove a negative trait from a gene pool makes my job, and every other breeder, a whole lot easier as I am simply trying to breed the best hereford cattle I can. If I found a horned bull that was good enough to use I wouldn't be afraid to use him. The horned gene in of itself doesn't bring value for my goals or my customers needs. They prefer not to dehorn calves.

You could ask your question in reverse too, why not just use polled bulls rather than work so hard to educate people? I would be curious to know if this technology would be available today at an affordable price, how many horned bulls would be genetically spliced with the polled gene. We may find out someday.
 

cow pollinater

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smnherf":3qz1dz1d said:
Its called breed improvement.
Are you sure? I would strongly disagree. So does my checkbook. I run herefords on my commercial cows and I won't give you two cents for a polled hereford bull and I already admitted that they're better than they used to be. ;-)
 

Brute 23

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I'm all for it. I hate horns.

From culling horns over the years and I guess buying polled bulls the vast majority, like 99.9%, of our calves are born with out horns... even with a few horned bulls thrown in.
 

elkwc

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cow pollinater":2xzii8f1 said:
smnherf":2xzii8f1 said:
Its called breed improvement.
Are you sure? I would strongly disagree. So does my checkbook. I run herefords on my commercial cows and I won't give you two cents for a polled hereford bull and I already admitted that they're better than they used to be. ;-)

I agree with your statement 100%. From my travels and searches for a good quality polled Hereford bull for 3 years I found what you stated to be very true in this area. The very few that are of the quality that a commercial breeder could use to produce progeny that would sell at the top of the market are priced so high that you can't afford them for commercial cows.
 
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farmguy

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A couple names always pop up to bash polled Herefords and that is their opinion. I respect that privilege. I do notice that AI catalogs have many more polled bulls than horned Herefords. What I cannot understand is why not bash other breeds as well? Are the only bad cattle polled Herefords? Also it would seem these individuals care about the Hereford breed so why attack what you care about? I have old farm magazines dating back to the 1920s and interestingly enough these same comments were made then and during the 30s as well. I suppose I will now receive a nasty message or two but I felt I should comment. Yes I do like a certain horned bull and hope to use some of his homo polled offspring. But I like many polled bulls as well. thank you farmguy
 

ddd75

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i have several herefords from a victor domino polled bull and they are top notch cows.

of course they all had horned momma's. so that may have something to do with it.
 

Son of Butch

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farmguy":311m6mn0 said:
A couple names always pop up to bash polled Herefords...
What I cannot understand is why not bash other breeds as well?
Are the only bad cattle polled Herefords?
I suppose I will now receive a nasty message or two ...
Why spread hate on other breeds too?

Are the only bad cattle polled Herefords?
Apparently so, as your own question implies/states polled Herefords are bad cattle.
 

True Grit Farms

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Are you sure? I would strongly disagree. So does my checkbook. I run herefords on my commercial cows and I won't give you two cents for a polled hereford bull and I already admitted that they're better than they used to be. ;-)

One man's opinion that has ran Hereford bulls on some ruff ground, not in your backyard. I'm not running anything but a polled bull but I see my cows daily. Common sense tells you that a Horned bull is tougher than a polled bull.
Do black Herefords come with horns?
 

Ebenezer

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Dogs and Cows":2ice4qf3 said:
I think MrVictorDomino in Kentucky has some outstanding polled Hereford bulls.
A + for a breeder who knows what is "good".
A + for a breeder willing to use that horrible linebreeding to make better cattle.

So, there are no bad HHs?
 

SPH

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farmguy":298fq3bl said:
A couple names always pop up to bash polled Herefords and that is their opinion. I respect that privilege. I do notice that AI catalogs have many more polled bulls than horned Herefords. What I cannot understand is why not bash other breeds as well? Are the only bad cattle polled Herefords? Also it would seem these individuals care about the Hereford breed so why attack what you care about? I have old farm magazines dating back to the 1920s and interestingly enough these same comments were made then and during the 30s as well. I suppose I will now receive a nasty message or two but I felt I should comment. Yes I do like a certain horned bull and hope to use some of his homo polled offspring. But I like many polled bulls as well. thank you farmguy

I notice the same thing too. Unfortunately I think there are some guys that are just always going to feel that horned Herefords are far superior to polled Herefords even if a good polled bull is staring them right in the face. I'll never quite understand it to be honest, I can appreciate a good horned Hereford as much as a polled we just don't care for horns in our own breeding program. It's kind of the same line thinking of how someone who breeds breed A and someone with breed B may never appreciate what each other's breed has to offer, especially in the commercial crossbred market. Regional markets also seem to dictate people's opinions too. In the south the horned Herefords seem to be more desirable but in my opinion the further north you travel in the US you'll gradually see more demand for polled Herefords.

I guess the way I look at it is if you are raising Herefords you make your breeding decisions based on the type of customer that is interested in your cattle. If your customers and potential customers want a certain type of bull or heifer then you make breeding decisions based on what is going to have the most demand and marketability and in our area polled cattle seems to be in more demand these days. There are some guys around here that won't even buy a Hereford bull with scurs because their worried about the possibility of horns with some of the breeds in the woodpile of their cows.

I am of the mentality that one man's opinion doesn't mean he is right or wrong. I'm not going to tell a guy a certain breed or certain type of cattle like say polled or horned Herefords that 1 is better than the other. It's all in the eye of the guy writing the check what he thinks fits his needs and if what we breed doesn't fit what he is looking for you don't take it personally and you wish him well in his search as every visit or inquiry is not a commitment to make a purchase. I don't believe in badmouthing another breeder or breed of animal as that is not going to get you the respect and reputation that you want as a seedstock breeder. It's OK to have difference of opinion but there is a fine line between that and attacking others that don't see things the same way you do.
 

True Grit Farms

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I'd be interested in knowing what the bigger operations in the tougher country are using for Hereford bulls. I know that the Cooper and Holden ranches run horned Herefords in Montana.
 

MRRherefords

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SPH":3be60wm6 said:
farmguy":3be60wm6 said:
A couple names always pop up to bash polled Herefords and that is their opinion. I respect that privilege. I do notice that AI catalogs have many more polled bulls than horned Herefords. What I cannot understand is why not bash other breeds as well? Are the only bad cattle polled Herefords? Also it would seem these individuals care about the Hereford breed so why attack what you care about? I have old farm magazines dating back to the 1920s and interestingly enough these same comments were made then and during the 30s as well. I suppose I will now receive a nasty message or two but I felt I should comment. Yes I do like a certain horned bull and hope to use some of his homo polled offspring. But I like many polled bulls as well. thank you farmguy

I notice the same thing too. Unfortunately I think there are some guys that are just always going to feel that horned Herefords are far superior to polled Herefords even if a good polled bull is staring them right in the face. I'll never quite understand it to be honest, I can appreciate a good horned Hereford as much as a polled we just don't care for horns in our own breeding program. It's kind of the same line thinking of how someone who breeds breed A and someone with breed B may never appreciate what each other's breed has to offer, especially in the commercial crossbred market. Regional markets also seem to dictate people's opinions too. In the south the horned Herefords seem to be more desirable but in my opinion the further north you travel in the US you'll gradually see more demand for polled Herefords.

I guess the way I look at it is if you are raising Herefords you make your breeding decisions based on the type of customer that is interested in your cattle. If your customers and potential customers want a certain type of bull or heifer then you make breeding decisions based on what is going to have the most demand and marketability and in our area polled cattle seems to be in more demand these days. There are some guys around here that won't even buy a Hereford bull with scurs because their worried about the possibility of horns with some of the breeds in the woodpile of their cows.

I am of the mentality that one man's opinion doesn't mean he is right or wrong. I'm not going to tell a guy a certain breed or certain type of cattle like say polled or horned Herefords that 1 is better than the other. It's all in the eye of the guy writing the check what he thinks fits his needs and if what we breed doesn't fit what he is looking for you don't take it personally and you wish him well in his search as every visit or inquiry is not a commitment to make a purchase. I don't believe in badmouthing another breeder or breed of animal as that is not going to get you the respect and reputation that you want as a seedstock breeder. It's OK to have difference of opinion but there is a fine line between that and attacking others that don't see things the same way you do.
I agree 100% SPH :nod: We also have people in our area who will not even consider an animal because it has scurs or horns. Personally I prefer polled over horned. There really is no right or wrong. Our customers prefer polled, but some of the best looking Herefords have horns. I have friends with both polled and horned Herefords and in the end we are all striving for the same result...to produce a superior beef animal.
 

smnherf

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elkwc":2uhwjw27 said:
cow pollinater":2uhwjw27 said:
smnherf":2uhwjw27 said:
Its called breed improvement.
Are you sure? I would strongly disagree. So does my checkbook. I run herefords on my commercial cows and I won't give you two cents for a polled hereford bull and I already admitted that they're better than they used to be. ;-)

I agree with your statement 100%. From my travels and searches for a good quality polled Hereford bull for 3 years I found what you stated to be very true in this area. The very few that are of the quality that a commercial breeder could use to produce progeny that would sell at the top of the market are priced so high that you can't afford them for commercial cows.

Im not going to get into a horned polled discussion as I could go on and on with examples that I know of where polled bulls replaced some horned bulls and they way out performed them from fertility, longevity, doscility and soundness issues. They wont use a horned bull anymore, in fact they tried a couple high dollar Line one bulls recently and they regretted it the first year and even more when they weaned the calves. These cattle ran in big pastures in central and western South Dakota with up to 300 cows in a 1500 acre pasture. Every area of the country is different and everyone's experience is different. The breeder and his selection process is more important than wether they have horns on them or not.

To get the topic back to original question then to both of you is would either of you use a straight horned pedigree bull that was genetically polled through a genetic splicing procedure? We have to assume that there would be no other variables that would be changed through the process.
 

smnherf

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True Grit Farms":30motvpt said:
I'd be interested in knowing what the bigger operations in the tougher country are using for Hereford bulls. I know that the Cooper and Holden ranches run horned Herefords in Montana.

Have you ever been to their ranch or seen their operation. How much do you think those cattle get challenged on a daily basis?
 

True Grit Farms

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smnherf":223j8h1g said:
True Grit Farms":223j8h1g said:
I'd be interested in knowing what the bigger operations in the tougher country are using for Hereford bulls. I know that the Cooper and Holden ranches run horned Herefords in Montana.

Have you ever been to their ranch or seen their operation. How much do you think those cattle get challenged on a daily basis?

Yes I've been to their ranches. And I wouldn't say thier cattle are challenged on a daily basis. But there selling points are there customers that run there bulls in some very challenging conditions. I always ask myself why someone does something, especially when it cost more money.
 

cow pollinater

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smnherf":eezeepr3 said:
To get the topic back to original question then to both of you is would either of you use a straight horned pedigree bull that was genetically polled through a genetic splicing procedure? We have to assume that there would be no other variables that would be changed through the process.
I wouldn't. For one thing I prefer them horned so I see no value in purchasing one that has been altered especially when I consider that the added cost has to get covered somewhere and it would most likely be me.
I'm also of the opinion that one of the greatest strengths of hereford is the heterosis offered over every other breed out there. The horn gene is one more little boost to that heterosis since most other breeds are now predominantly polled. I would hate to see that little bit of extra get lost.
 

cow pollinater

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In reading this I see that some have taken my comments as bashing polled herefords. That is not my intent at all. I do strongly prefer horns but that is my personal preference and I do like good cattle of all breeds including some polled herefords. My point is that there is an insistence in this thread that polled is better and my response is that A. Not everyone thinks so. B. If polled are better then why do you feel the need to use a horned bull at all? That seems intellectually dishonest to me.
 

Son of Butch

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smnherf":1ywq6wyf said:
elkwc":1ywq6wyf said:
cow pollinater":1ywq6wyf said:
Are you sure? I would strongly disagree. So does my checkbook. I run herefords on my commercial cows and I won't give you two cents for a polled hereford bull and I already admitted that they're better than they used to be. ;-)

I agree with your statement 100%. From my travels and searches for a good quality polled Hereford bull for 3 years I found what you stated to be very true in this area. The very few that are of the quality that a commercial breeder could use to produce progeny that would sell at the top of the market are priced so high that you can't afford them for commercial cows.

Im not going to get into a horned polled discussion as I could go on and on with examples that I know of where polled bulls replaced some horned bulls and they way out performed them from fertility, longevity, doscility and soundness issues. They wont use a horned bull anymore, in fact they tried a couple high dollar Line one bulls recently and they regretted it the first year and even more when they weaned the calves. These cattle ran in big pastures in central and western South Dakota with up to 300 cows in a 1500 acre pasture. Every area of the country is different and everyone's experience is different. The breeder and his selection process is more important than wether they have horns on them or not.

To get the topic back to original question then to both of you is would either of you use a straight horned pedigree bull that was genetically polled through a genetic splicing procedure? We have to assume that there would be no other variables that would be changed through the process.
To condense your question for you.
Would you use a dehorned Horned Hereford bull that sires polled calves?
Sure, why not?
 

SPH

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True Grit Farms":1mblq847 said:
I'd be interested in knowing what the bigger operations in the tougher country are using for Hereford bulls. I know that the Cooper and Holden ranches run horned Herefords in Montana.

I got the chance to visit Shaw Cattle Company near Boise, ID this past summer while in Boise for a family wedding. They are long time breeders who mainly bred horned Herefords in the past but have now been gradually moving more to the polled side. They are an operation that runs 3 breeds of cattle: Herefords, Angus, and Red Angus and between the 3 breeds sell around 400 bulls a year so they have quite a large customer base. They do a lot of AI to polled bulls such as Hometown, 936, Tested, and York currently and we also saw either cows or calves that were sired by Thor, Wonder M326 W18, X51, and 755T. Saw 1 pasture they had 3 yearling 936 sons they kept running cleanup on cows. They had a good mix of polled and horned cattle in the pastures we saw and have polled and both horned and dehorned bulls they keep for sale to be able to have something for all their customers. They told us more of their customers are moving away from the horned bulls to the polled bulls as they don't want to mess with horns anymore. Their focus on the polled side is using only proven polled AI sires which of that list above those bulls have several years of progeny and daughters in production now that would fit the criteria.

Also saw some very good horned cattle while there too. Their Peerless and Efficient lines were good looking cattle, they also are doing some AI to the popular 3027 bull too. If you go out to their website or look at their sale catalog you can get a good idea of the blend of both polled and horned Herefords they are producing right now.

It may not be out in the mountain range area but little over an hour away from us is Wiese & Sons who are several generation Hereford breeders that we have known for a long time. Made a visit there late last summer as they bought a polled bull from us a few years back which we kept in-herd semen interest on but we wanted to see some of the progeny they had out of him along with their other bloodlines. They have purchased some polled sires in the past few years and are doing a mix of horned and polled bulls now, was told their bull battery is about 50/50 horned and polled currently.

Would love to get out and view some more herds in person in the future as seeing the cattle in person is probably one of the best evaluations you can get. It's starting to become something we look at doing more when we're going to be in the area of a breeder and have time to stop in along with keeping in touch with our own bull buyers and making follow up visits with them to see what kind of results they are getting. Two things I hope to do some day is go to the Nationals in Denver and venture around the pens there and make a visit to Rausch's in South Dakota which is a program we have bought a herd bull from as well as use a lot of their AI genetics.
 

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