Hereford Bulls Turned Out

[mrvictordomino]

MrVictordomino, sounds like a good program. What has has been your main strategy for fertility selection. Do you continue to compress your breeding season? Re, capacity, I don't discriminate as much as I use to as long as they continue to function, what you consider a lack of capacity, heart girth, forerib, depth or spring of rib and or depth of flank, any or all of the above? Sounds like you are in an enviable position from the stand point of affording to select more consistently on type, what role does you sire selection play in that.

Really like the pictures Dylan, lovely family, good cattle and great looking facilities!!!
I have a sixty day calving season. If you adhere to that, everything else will take care of itself. I posted on another thread where we had 110 of 140 calves born this fall in the first 24 days, no drugs, no A.I., all natural service. The fertility is there. As for the capacity of the cattle, all of the above. As for bull selection, I am looking for the bulls that do have a little extra depth, but the bull's dam is still a top priority.
I have a yearling bull 056 in mind to use next year, good performance, good length, large testicles, but very average in depth of body.
His dam is a cow who has proven to be very good, and with great depth and capacity. His daughters hopefully will resemble his dam.
056 and dam 677 pictured below.

056 pictured this summer at 10 1/2 months old


Dam 677 pictured this fall

 

[Dylan Biggs]

MrVictordomino, thank you.
A nice looking cow in great condition, I certainly wouldn't be shy about the young bull. My guess is he will fill out as he matures. Re, daughters resembling his dam in function and secondly type, this is the whole point of concentrating with tighter breeding as opposed to the outcross shuffle. You are on the right track from my point of view.

 

[KNERSIE]

Dylan, any chance of drawing up a diagram of the layout of your working facilities? I'm happy with what I have, but I'm always looking to improve and I've found that I've learned a lot more from practical farmers than from the academics about working facilities.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Knersie, I can do that, and tell you what changes I would make.

 

[KNERSIE]

Thanks, I'd appreciate that.

 

[robert]

Hey Dylan, I'd like that system with all the help available and without the (hopefully) optional snow! Also, I think I see where your linebreeding / inbreeding program went so horribly wrong, you used a female that had too much body and functionality then compounded the error by adding an Angus bull that had some masculine characteristics....it'll never work I tell ya, never!

 

[mrvictordomino]

Hey Dylan, I'd like that system with all the help available and without the (hopefully) optional snow! Also, I think I see where your linebreeding / inbreeding program went so horribly wrong, you used a female that had too much body and functionality then compounded the error by adding an Angus bull that had some masculine characteristics....it'll never work I tell ya, never!

Good point robert, matings like that will never have a chance, who would do such a thing. :lol: :lol:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Hey Dylan, I'd like that system with all the help available and without the (hopefully) optional snow! Also, I think I see where your linebreeding / inbreeding program went so horribly wrong, you used a female that had too much body and functionality then compounded the error by adding an Angus bull that had some masculine characteristics....it'll never work I tell ya, never!

Good point robert, matings like that will never have a chance, who would do such a thing. :lol: :lol:

Robert, there is a reason we get called CRAZY Canucks, living up here in the hinterlands, no contact with the civilized world, a guy can get all sorts of hair brained ideas. :nod: :lol2:

 

[mrvictordomino]

This thread has been interesting to me because of some of Dylan's questions about my program. It has got me thinking about future matings that would, or should increase prepotency and consistency within the herd. I truly believe working and concentrating with a closed line of cattle will and should over time produce some superior individuals. Unfortunately, "over time" probably means a lifetime of selection and breeding, too bad cattle breeding is such a slow process. With that being said, I looked at some herd sires of Holden Herefords and Coopers, who have stayed with one continuous blood line for many years to compare some IBC percentages.
HH Advance 9075W IBC 24% HH Advance 9144W IBC 25% HH Advance 4055P IBC 24% CL 1 Domino 886U IBC 25% CL 1 Domino 7128T IBC 23%
There are not many line-bred herds on the polled side of the breed. I did select a herd in FL that has some of the same bloodlines that I have and checked their IBC number on their herd sires: PW 709 Victor 962 IBC 12% PW X101 Victor 735 IBC 18% PW 360 Victor 633 IBC 9%
and PW 254 Victor 773 12%
My yearling bulls range from 18-23% and when I use the IBC tool, there can easily be matings that would have individuals exceed 30%.
Too late this year to make some of these matings since the bulls are already turned out. Will have plenty of time to plan for next year.
Any comments welcomed.
DM

 

[Dylan Biggs]

This thread has been interesting to me because of some of Dylan's questions about my program. It has got me thinking about future matings that would, or should increase prepotency and consistency within the herd. I truly believe working and concentrating with a closed line of cattle will and should over time produce some superior individuals. Unfortunately, "over time" probably means a lifetime of selection and breeding, too bad cattle breeding is such a slow process. With that being said, I looked at some herd sires of Holden Herefords and Coopers, who have stayed with one continuous blood line for many years to compare some IBC percentages.
HH Advance 9075W IBC 24% HH Advance 9144W IBC 25% HH Advance 4055P IBC 24% CL 1 Domino 886U IBC 25% CL 1 Domino 7128T IBC 23%
There are not many line-bred herds on the polled side of the breed. I did select a herd in FL that has some of the same bloodlines that I have and checked their IBC number on their herd sires: PW 709 Victor 962 IBC 12% PW X101 Victor 735 IBC 18% PW 360 Victor 633 IBC 9%
and PW 254 Victor 773 12%
My yearling bulls range from 18-23% and when I use the IBC tool, there can easily be matings that would have individuals exceed 30%.
Too late this year to make some of these matings since the bulls are already turned out. Will have plenty of time to plan for next year.
Any comments welcomed.
DM

MrVictorDomino, this topic is of interest to me also. I have only been experimenting with concentrating my herds bloodlines since 2005. What intrigues me about the process is the prospect of an analogous population of cattle that basically regardless of the individual, when used to breed in a commercial application will pass on a reliable and consisitent functional maternal ability. The consisitency being bred into the population, not only the exemplary individual. Not that I don't enjoy or admire the exemplary individual, I do, but out of a long term concentrated herd the difference between 2 adequate sized contemporary progeny groups from the superior and the average individual the relative functional difference should be negligible. The calving record of your herd, "110 of 140 calves born this fall in the first 24 days, no drugs, no A.I., all natural service. The fertility is there." would indicate a bred in consistent functional ability nonreliant on the exemplary individual. Like you say there is always a bottom and room for improvement, but from a relative standpoint your herd appears to be well along. I am gald to hear you still inspired and looking forward to future matings and take inspiration from your continued enthusiasm. My own realtively brief experience has been more gratifying for me then the previous 19 years. Progress, relative to my goals is apparent and the product of my own doing. Not all and evry mating has been a success but niether were they before. The % of matings that I am satisfied with is greater than before and more importantly maternal functioning is already more reliable.

MrVictorDomino, you seem very aware of and attuned to selecting for a specific type that you consider preferable.
As regards the selection of herd sire prospects in your endevour to select for and fix your preferred type how much relative emphasis do you place on the phenotype of the individual prospect compared to the phenotype of the prospects dam. Will you forgive a prospect some type, excluding structural faults of course, if the dam has exhibited the type and demonstrated the function you desire? Especially if your future matings will utilize the prospect to concentrate the cow genetics.

DB

 

[mrvictordomino]

Dylan, thanks for your detailed reply....I really do not want to sacrifice phenotype in bull selection regardless of the dam. To select from within my gene pool, I realize it will take longer to achieve some of my objectives since I do not have any extremes in any one trait. Hopefully with the cow numbers I will maintain, I will continue to have many options every year in my bull calf crops to move the herd forward.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

967 2 year old



930 2 year old

Mr Victordomino, fair enough, I typically feel the same regarding prospect type.
In a sincere effort to understand your selection prefernces and guidelines concerning the 2 bulls above, in your evaluation how similar or different in type do you consider these 2 bulls?

Thank you. :tiphat:

 

[mrvictordomino]

Seeing in person, 930 and 967 are not so much different in type, but may not breed the same either.
From these pictures, 967 is the more powerful bull.
930's sire 653 was used one season and sired the top performing bull and heifer that year. The only
problem was I didn't like the package they came in. The top performers had extra frame, great length, but lacked depth of body. The older 653 got, the less I liked him, extremely long and no
body. I did keep 930 because of his good weaning and yearling ratios. He also scanned very well.
He also represented a different line that I thought I might need in the future so I would not breed myself into a corner geneticly. I have some calves on the ground by him and they are going to have some depth of body to them, better than I had anticipated.
967 is the thicker made bull. His dam is a very deep bodied 343 daughter and I do expect him to sire calves somewhat different than the other bull. To me, when I talk change of type, I would think of the 745 four year old as a type changer in this herd.
Both 930 and 967 were out of two year old heifers. 930 actually had better individual performance than 967. Both bulls are out with heifers this breeding season.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

MrVictorDomino, thank you for your thorough explanation. You illustrate well the challenges of individual selection within the context of multiple considerations. The eventual result as you lamented earlier will not be known for some time. That is part of the cattle breeding adventure, casting the genetic dice and waiting expectantly, patiently for the outcome to unfold. Good luck, keep us posted.

Thank you.
Dylan

 

[mrvictordomino]

In reference to the thread "thoughts on this bull" where the original post of six pictures on this thread was used as an example of top lines on herd bulls, the comment was made that three of the six did not have the top of the poll higher than the crops. The 745 bull seemed to be the worst offender of that analysis, so I am picturing the same bull in a more "natural" pose from last year as a three year old. This picture will confirm that the shoulder angles are correct and his poll is higher than the crops. The 4 year old picture was snapped as he raised his head...I thought it was a decent shot, but I will be more conscience next time when shooting bull pictures. :nod: