Hereford association

[bball]

I guess I will stir the pot.

I have a number of issues with the AHA.

1. The heavy focus by the AHA on the shows. The Hereford cattle being produced for and winning the shows have little practical use in the commercial cattle industry. They are white muscled toads. Most of them are produced via ET and there is almost no way to tell if their dams can have and raise a calf, or breed back regularly, because the dams have been in a donor pen since they were heifers. There is little interest from this sector in important economic traits for the commercial cattle industry, like longevity, or doability in rangelike conditions, a trait the Hereford breed was once famous for possessing.

2. EPDs are the "cash cow" of the breed associatons and are probably the biggest sham ever foisted on the cattle industry. They took a good tool (in-herd production/performance records) and turned it into a farce in the effort to quantify results across an entire breed and even multiple breeds. Even with the so called "genetic enhancement", EPD accuracies on young virgin bulls is about .3 or lower. Before you buy that next young bull based on his EPDs, I urge you to look into things like the EPD's accuracy and the STANDARD DEVIATION at that accuracy for thos EPDs you are looking at. It is eye opening once you understand it. But you won't see the breed associations freely putting that information out there. And most breeders won't publish EPD accuracy numbers in those slick catalogs they put out for their upcoming sale.

3. Breed integrity. The primary purpose of a breed association should be to preserve the integrity of the breed by insuring that the registrations and resulting pedigrees produced are accurate. The AHA has failed miserably in that regard. The Hereford Herdbook was supposed to be closed for well over a century, yet the breed has been significantly contaminated with the blood of other breeds since the mid 70s. It was the Simmental that brought the diluter gene disorder into the breed. Now, the quest for goggle eyes, red necks, and "red to the hoof" legs have prompted many breeders to use bulls who display very little Hereford breed character and whose genetic makeup is questionable, IMO. It is probably only a few years until the trademark "white face" will be completely gone from many "registered Herefords". The AHA seems to have no interest in particpating OR even making data available to anyone that is interested in doing DNA research regarding breed identification and purity. Probably because they are all too aware of all the snakes in the genetic woodpile.

I could write a book(or at least a long chapter) about each of these issues that I have. But I will step aside on the soapbox and welcome comments from others now.

Thanks for taking the time to post. As someone who maintains a few Herefords for crossbreeding to BA, i am very intetested in the comments forthcoming to your post

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I just commented on another post about all the "hidden" mixed breeds back in the 70's and even 80's. It was easier back then - not the available DNA tests that we have now.
Yes, the Herefords conveniently developed LOTS of goggle eyed cattle and lost a lot of the neck feathering and white legs slightly after Simmental got so popular.
And, just to clarify - the diluter gene is NOT considered a "disorder" - it is just a color gene (or lack of color LOL)

I have to say, I think the combining of the Horned Hereford association and the Polled were a tremendous boost for the breed. The polled cattle were really lacking and the horned cattle have improved the cattle I have seen. I, personally, think the Hereford cattle are better than the Angus - "on average as a breed" with the addition of the horned cattle.

 

[Herefords.US]

And, just to clarify - the diluter gene is NOT considered a "disorder" - it is just a color gene (or lack of color LOL)

Jeanne, in regard to Herefords, I have seen the presence of the diluter gene referred to as a genetic abnormality, a genetic defect, a disorder, or a syndrome...depending on the author. I think genetic abnormality is the most commonly used term by the associations.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well, in my world, there is nothing abnormal about it. Not something we like, but came with the original package if you used Switzerland or French pedigrees. German & Austria cattle were not diluters. It is just a color gene. Either the authors were not knowledgeable about color genes or they just wanted to exaggerate a point. I suppose they would call the scur gene a defect/disorder?? Just words.
So, back to the point at hand, are you saying the original Herefords did not carry the diluter gene? I thought they did (before the blending of breeds).

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I guess I will stir the pot.

I have a number of issues with the AHA.

1. The heavy focus by the AHA on the shows. The Hereford cattle being produced for and winning the shows have little practical use in the commercial cattle industry. They are white muscled toads. Most of them are produced via ET and there is almost no way to tell if their dams can have and raise a calf, or breed back regularly, because the dams have been in a donor pen since they were heifers. There is little interest from this sector in important economic traits for the commercial cattle industry, like longevity, or doability in rangelike conditions, a trait the Hereford breed was once famous for possessing.

2. EPDs are the "cash cow" of the breed associations and are probably the biggest sham ever foisted on the cattle industry. They took a good tool (in-herd production/performance records) and turned it into a farce in the effort to quantify results across an entire breed and even multiple breeds. Even with the so called "genetic enhancement", EPD accuracies on young virgin bulls is about .3 or lower. Before you buy that next young bull based on his EPDs, I urge you to look into things like the EPD's accuracy and the STANDARD DEVIATION at that accuracy for those EPDs you are looking at. It is eye opening once you understand it. But you won't see the breed associations freely putting that information out there. And most breeders won't publish EPD accuracy numbers in those slick catalogs they put out for their upcoming sale.

3. Breed integrity. The primary purpose of a breed association should be to preserve the integrity of the breed by insuring that the registrations and resulting pedigrees produced are accurate. The AHA has failed miserably in that regard. The Hereford Herdbook was supposed to be closed for well over a century, yet the breed has been significantly contaminated with the blood of other breeds since the mid 70s. It was the Simmental that brought the diluter gene disorder into the breed. Now, the quest for goggle eyes, red necks, and "red to the hoof" legs have prompted many breeders to use bulls who display very little Hereford breed character and whose genetic makeup is questionable, IMO. It is probably only a few years until the trademark "white face" will be completely gone from many "registered Herefords". The AHA seems to have no interest in particpating OR even making data available to anyone that is interested in doing DNA research regarding breed identification and purity. Probably because they are all too aware of all the snakes in the genetic woodpile.

I could write a book(or at least a long chapter) about each of these issues that I have. But I will step aside on the soapbox and welcome comments from others now.

Be careful about speaking out against breed associations on this forum, you'll get labeled a neurotic hater because you expect more out of them.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Well, in my world, there is nothing abnormal about it. Not something we like, but came with the original package if you used Switzerland or French pedigrees. German & Austria cattle were not diluters. It is just a color gene. Either the authors were not knowledgeable about color genes or they just wanted to exaggerate a point. I suppose they would call the scur gene a defect/disorder?? Just words.
So, back to the point at hand, are you saying the original Herefords did not carry the diluter gene? I thought they did (before the blending of breeds).

Might be like that soybean field with a stalk of corn growing out in the middle of it,then it's a weed..

 

[Allenw]

Well, in my world, there is nothing abnormal about it. Not something we like, but came with the original package if you used Switzerland or French pedigrees. German & Austria cattle were not diluters. It is just a color gene. Either the authors were not knowledgeable about color genes or they just wanted to exaggerate a point. I suppose they would call the scur gene a defect/disorder?? Just words.
So, back to the point at hand, are you saying the original Herefords did not carry the diluter gene? I thought they did (before the blending of breeds).

My understanding is they didn't.

 

[farmguy]

Thank you to those answering my question in a thoughtful respectful manner. While not fully understanding or fully agreeing I have more insight. farmguy

 

[Herefords.US]

So, back to the point at hand, are you saying the original Herefords did not carry the diluter gene? I thought they did (before the blending of breeds).

Jeanne, the presence of the diluter gene in Herefords (in North America) did not occur until after the first Simmental were imported to Canada and subsequently brought in to the United States(late 60s, early 70s?)

Probably 99% of the Herefords that have tested as carriers of the diluter gene trace, by pedigree, to Titan 23D.

Titan 23D was a bull born in 1972. He was born in Canada and imported into the United States.

 

[Ky hills]

I'm just a peon, but will throw my hat into the ring too. I agree with Herefords.US, in that the show ring emphasis is largely a detriment to the commercial sector, as the registered breeders in large part tend to follow the show ring. Then in turn offer the resulting genetics to their customers. I have no problem with showing cattle that are bred to work in the real world, however when cattle are bred to show without the working background that leads to problems. I found out the hard way in the 90's from Charolais that buying into the hype of the show bull of the month and donor prospect of year, wasn't the key. Those cattle were bred to be head high next to a tall man, they were about as deep bodied as a green snake, and wouldn't milk enough to raise a calf if you kept feed laying by them. There were Charolais out there that did what they were supposed to do, and did it well, but they went largely unnoticed. I see different but detrimental trends in Angus and Herefords both in terms of usefulness. When selecting Hereford bulls I try to find one with both some frame and thickness. My personal opinion and I may be roasted on here for it is that I would rather have an "average Hereford" than a "good Angus". Hereford cows, and bulls just seem to work better here than Angus. Locally I am seeing a lot of interest in both Hereford bulls and females. If those producers seeking Herefords have a good experience with them then it could be a major turning point for the breed, but if they have a negative one it just serves to reinforce the old stereotypes.
On the subject of other breed infusions, I have posted this picture of this calf before but here goes again. She is the second one to be born with this pattern. She is from purebred parents, as was the other one. I plan to keep her as a commercial cow, The calves by that bull have been good, but we sold him last year. The cow in the picture is not the dam of the calf.

 

[elkwc]

Well, in my world, there is nothing abnormal about it. Not something we like, but came with the original package if you used Switzerland or French pedigrees. German & Austria cattle were not diluters. It is just a color gene. Either the authors were not knowledgeable about color genes or they just wanted to exaggerate a point. I suppose they would call the scur gene a defect/disorder?? Just words.
So, back to the point at hand, are you saying the original Herefords did not carry the diluter gene? I thought they did (before the blending of breeds).

Jeanne my understanding is they didn't. Also the white face gene has been lost on some. I knew when I purchased the bull I sent the picture of that there was some risks. I stated if I got one calf that wasn't white faced he would gain some wheels and be sold. Now I guess I will eat my words. Like his calves well enough I decided I would keep him. The breeder across the fence have old breeding horned bulls and 100% white faced. Baldies sell well here and baldie heifer pairs top the market. That was my goal and why we bought a Hereford bull to start with.

As a commercial breeder one concern/question I have is how do they show EPD's on the papers when an animal was never weighed? I purchased a fall ET bull calf at auction this spring. His papers show WW and YW EPD's. He was almost 7 months when I bought him and has never been weighed. To me this proves the inaccuracy of EPD's.

One other concern is the loss of docility that Herefords were known for. Have seen more high headed head to the back side of the pasture or pen and those that will run over you in the last five years than I have in my lifetime. These are top bred modern breeding.

 

[farmguy]

Cattle shows are basically a beauty contest based on an ideal. Incidentally I could not find a recent breed standard. if you have one could you give me the link. In order to make contest champions more in line with the real world how would you change the ideal? I do look at EPDs and I have noticed some recent show champions are not what I would desire. farmguy

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

elkwc - the individual animals BW, WW & YW are probably a very small influence on the EPD's. You can get EPD's predicted on calves that aren't even born. "Planned mating" You pick a bull (or several to compare) to breed to your cows & can get the "expected" EPD's. Getting actual weights on an individual animal HELPS, but doesn't "make" the EPD's. Hope that makes sense.
I show cattle and I will agree that there are a lot of cattle out there that couldn't work their way out of a paper bag if they had to in the real world. But, there are a LOT of cattle shown that are good solid cattle.
Not to brag, but I do well in the show ring and I manage my herd like a commercial herd. Yes, ones that I pick out for show are pampered during show season, but they are bred & turned out on grass with the rest of the herd and you wouldn't be able to pick one out from a cow that wasn't shown.
The show ring is a super great way for me to advertise my farm and make sales. AND, it gives me a "measuring stick" to see how I am doing in my breeding programs. Like anything, some people take things "too far".

 

[elkwc]

elkwc - the individual animals BW, WW & YW are probably a very small influence on the EPD's. You can get EPD's predicted on calves that aren't even born. "Planned mating" You pick a bull (or several to compare) to breed to your cows & can get the "expected" EPD's. Getting actual weights on an individual animal HELPS, but doesn't "make" the EPD's. Hope that makes sense.
I show cattle and I will agree that there are a lot of cattle out there that couldn't work their way out of a paper bag if they had to in the real world. But, there are a LOT of cattle shown that are good solid cattle.
Not to brag, but I do well in the show ring and I manage my herd like a commercial herd. Yes, ones that I pick out for show are pampered during show season, but they are bred & turned out on grass with the rest of the herd and you wouldn't be able to pick one out from a cow that wasn't shown.
The show ring is a super great way for me to advertise my farm and make sales. AND, it gives me a "measuring stick" to see how I am doing in my breeding programs. Like anything, some people take things "too far".

Jeanne I wasn't talking about just show cattle. Many of the so called overfed EPD wonders are the same. I don't know how they calculate the numbers buy in my experience they don't relate to the real world. We have bought a few bulls with high numbers that their progeny performed below those sired by our hone raised and non papered sires. We sell by actual numbers and that is what I demand now.

 

[JWBrahman]

On another board where I was banned there is a discussion on that forum about the AHA. I was banned per the administrator because I had the word Hereford as part of my E mail address. Therefore showing a lack of intellect. Hence I cannot enter in that conversation but I do know that individuals on this forum are also active on that forum.
My question first of all is why the discussion on ignoring and not using the AHA? What exactly are the issues? Secondly is this an issue with other breed associations where a minority are unhappy and threaten to ignore the breed association. I do realize there can be legitimate differences in opinions.
This is a sincere question on my part. I would sincerely like to know the issues involved. thank you farmguy.

It's the oldest story in the world. We create organizations/bureaucracies to perform simple tasks like keep a record of the pedigrees. The bureaucracy always seeks more power and influence. But most importantly the bureaucracy always needs more money.

The complaints about the AHA are valid yet overblown. Of course a breed registry cannot enforce honesty retroactively. They shouldn't have to. A smart rancher is going to visit other operations in his area to distinguish what is making money and what are fairy tales.

Life is a moving target. We can beech about it or we can accept that we have to work hard everyday to become better.

 

[cbcr]

With breed associations, there always seems to be some sort of controversy. Some think that the promotion for the breed should be done by the association, another group of breeders want something else and it goes on and on.

All of these programs cost money! But just how much should members of an association have to pay? From the looks of the fees charged by the Hereford Association, they look to be pretty reasonable. Several breed associations have their fees much higher!

The Hereford used to be king and herds of Hereford cattle were very visible. What happened? Is what happened the fault of the association or the breeders? Can it be fixed?

Members of the organization elect members to the board. Are the one that are being elected trying to do good for the breed or once elected are they using their position on the board to be self serving. This is an issue for all breed associations.

Losing members and their herds along with registrations hurt the breed. For those that are left, it reduces the gene pool to select from.

Members need to discuss their issues and do more that just talk about them. These are real concerns and need to be presented to the board. If they ignore these issues and concerns, then other alternatives should be sought!

 

[MurraysMutts]

So I was goggle searching for info about hereford epds regarding my er registered hereford bull.

This stuff explains alot.

To me, it almost sounds like breed em and see whatcha get...

He'll I'm doing that now!

 

[Caustic Burno]

With breed associations, there always seems to be some sort of controversy. Some think that the promotion for the breed should be done by the association, another group of breeders want something else and it goes on and on.

All of these programs cost money! But just how much should members of an association have to pay? From the looks of the fees charged by the Hereford Association, they look to be pretty reasonable. Several breed associations have their fees much higher!

The Hereford used to be king and herds of Hereford cattle were very visible. What happened? Is what happened the fault of the association or the breeders? Can it be fixed?

Members of the organization elect members to the board. Are the one that are being elected trying to do good for the breed or once elected are they using their position on the board to be self serving. This is an issue for all breed associations.

Losing members and their herds along with registrations hurt the breed. For those that are left, it reduces the gene pool to select from.

Members need to discuss their issues and do more that just talk about them. These are real concerns and need to be presented to the board. If they ignore these issues and concerns, then other alternatives should be sought!

I ran registered Hereford for decades, I left over being charged fees to death.
I have one registered Hereford left in the pasture and she is an 06 model.

 

[elkwc]

So I was goggle searching for info about hereford epds regarding my er registered hereford bull.

This stuff explains alot.

To me, it almost sounds like breed em and see whatcha get...

He'll I'm doing that now!

That is one of the few options you have. There are a few linebred herds like Deewall's that offer bulls of known bloodlines that will sire true Hereford cattle. We have been trying Hereford bulls for 3 years. Hopefully now we will have at least one bull make it another breeding season.

 

[kentuckyguy]

I may get blasted for this but here goes. I have registered Simmental and hereford cattle. I'm a small farmer always having under 20 cows.

I have always loved Herefords and have recently started getting back into having a few. I quickly noticed when dealing with the AHA that it was a huge money pit that I didn't encounter with Simmental.

Here is where I'll make some people mad. If you search a lot of recent hereford pedigrees you will find a couple bulls that show up in a lot of hereford pedigrees. These bulls are known for carrying genetic defects but the AHA doesn't stop them from being used or require testing of progeny. The bulls come from one of the larger names of hereford breeders. To me this is a horrible practice.

I don't wanna go throwing names around and stepping on toes but if you do a little research you will find thousands of progeny being sold in registered sales that could possible carry these defects. Not to mention all of the sons that have semen being sold.

I started doing my own AI work a few years ago and it has been pretty enlightening. The biggest problem I have found is you don't really know that a bulls is really good until he's been used for 5-6 years. And unfortunately by that time most bulls have quit producing or had to be put down for other reasons.