Hereford angus F1

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Wouldn't the arguments against using the "black Hereford" because of the lack of heterosis also apply to most of the continental composites who use Angus genetics and select toward an Angus phenotype? When those composites are used on an Angus based cow herd.
 
Andyva":329f6rhi said:
Wouldn't the arguments against using the "black Hereford" because of the lack of heterosis also apply to most of the continental composites who use Angus genetics and select toward an Angus phenotype? When those composites are used on an Angus based cow herd.
Yes
 
Andyva":8qzw4zrq said:
Wouldn't the arguments against using the "black Hereford" because of the lack of heterosis also apply to most of the continental composites who use Angus genetics and select toward an Angus phenotype? When those composites are used on an Angus based cow herd.
The black continental composites still add more pounds in the calves and some black continental composites have very small Angus in them.
 
dun":33v81zga said:
Andyva":33v81zga said:
Wouldn't the arguments against using the "black Hereford" because of the lack of heterosis also apply to most of the continental composites who use Angus genetics and select toward an Angus phenotype? When those composites are used on an Angus based cow herd.
Yes
Well, I guess I won't tell if you won't. :wave:
 
I hardly think the average PB Simmental and black Hereford are anywhere near each other in terms of heterosis (or lack thereof) when bred to a black angus. There is a big difference in stabilization, as well as the amount of angus of angus contained. I looked at my cattle, and with the exception of one SimAngus cow, and her resulting matings, you'd have to go waaaaaaay back to find any angus. Most I couldn't even locate, even using the ASA website, not just looking at their papers. I know this isn't always the scenario with PB Simmy when looking at 7/8th blood though...
 
Gators Rule":24qaq5dy said:
I hardly think the average PB Simmental and black Hereford are anywhere near each other in terms of heterosis (or lack thereof) when bred to a black angus. There is a big difference in stabilization, as well as the amount of angus of angus contained. I looked at my cattle, and with the exception of one SimAngus cow, and her resulting matings, you'd have to go waaaaaaay back to find any angus. Most I couldn't even locate, even using the ASA website, not just looking at their papers. I know this isn't always the scenario with PB Simmy when looking at 7/8th blood though...

The problem I have with any of them is we have turned dang near every breed into a septic tank of Angus genetics
for black hide and nothing else.

There are benefits to composite breeds and stabilization of them.
But at least we tell the true story there it is a Brangus or a Gert etc. we are not trying to sell it as something it is not.
The Black Hereford being the worst of the lot and not even recognized by the association.
It was created as a sham at best and has to be the top or in at least second place for the worst possible composite you
could create.
 
What disturbs me even more about the black hide infatuation is we are just one good
investigative journalism report away from this blowing up.
I have seen almost every breed and color have its day in the sun and the black has held on the
longest.
99.99% of Americans think they are buying Angus beef in every super market, restaurant and fast food chain.
The closest that a lot of this beef got to being Angus was standing by one in the feed lot.
Camelot will fall on this I am certain. This makes me wonder how we let ourselves get roped into
this predicament and what are we going to do when a black hide is docked.
 
sim.-ang.king":46zv6bdt said:
"what are we going to do when a black hide is docked."
Get a different bull?

:lol:

You and I both know the requirements for CAB.
The public perception is it is Angus.
Not going to be near as easy to turn them a different color as it was black.
 
Be pretty easy for a lot cross breeders with mixed herds.
Most of my cattle are red, or carry the red gene, so it wouldn't take much to get whatever color I wanted, just change the bull.
 
Caustic Burno":3kpd394s said:
Gators Rule":3kpd394s said:
I hardly think the average PB Simmental and black Hereford are anywhere near each other in terms of heterosis (or lack thereof) when bred to a black angus. There is a big difference in stabilization, as well as the amount of angus of angus contained. I looked at my cattle, and with the exception of one SimAngus cow, and her resulting matings, you'd have to go waaaaaaay back to find any angus. Most I couldn't even locate, even using the ASA website, not just looking at their papers. I know this isn't always the scenario with PB Simmy when looking at 7/8th blood though...

The problem I have with any of them is we have turned dang near every breed into a septic tank of Angus genetics
for black hide and nothing else.

There are benefits to composite breeds and stabilization of them.
But at least we tell the true story there it is a Brangus or a Gert etc. we are not trying to sell it as something it is not.
The Black Hereford being the worst of the lot and not even recognized by the association.
It was created as a sham at best and has to be the top or in at least second place for the worst possible composite you
could create.

Caustic Burno":3kpd394s said:
What disturbs me even more about the black hide infatuation is we are just one good
investigative journalism report away from this blowing up.
I have seen almost every breed and color have its day in the sun and the black has held on the
longest.
99.99% of Americans think they are buying Angus beef in every super market, restaurant and fast food chain.
The closest that a lot of this beef got to being Angus was standing by one in the feed lot.
Camelot will fall on this I am certain. This makes me wonder how we let ourselves get roped into
this predicament and what are we going to do when a black hide is docked.

:wave:

PS -- Hadn't seen you post in a while, CB ... good to see you alive and kicking. :)
 
WalnutCrest":3rcl9jtd said:
Caustic Burno":3rcl9jtd said:
Gators Rule":3rcl9jtd said:
I hardly think the average PB Simmental and black Hereford are anywhere near each other in terms of heterosis (or lack thereof) when bred to a black angus. There is a big difference in stabilization, as well as the amount of angus of angus contained. I looked at my cattle, and with the exception of one SimAngus cow, and her resulting matings, you'd have to go waaaaaaay back to find any angus. Most I couldn't even locate, even using the ASA website, not just looking at their papers. I know this isn't always the scenario with PB Simmy when looking at 7/8th blood though...

The problem I have with any of them is we have turned dang near every breed into a septic tank of Angus genetics
for black hide and nothing else.

There are benefits to composite breeds and stabilization of them.
But at least we tell the true story there it is a Brangus or a Gert etc. we are not trying to sell it as something it is not.
The Black Hereford being the worst of the lot and not even recognized by the association.
It was created as a sham at best and has to be the top or in at least second place for the worst possible composite you
could create.

Caustic Burno":3rcl9jtd said:
What disturbs me even more about the black hide infatuation is we are just one good
investigative journalism report away from this blowing up.
I have seen almost every breed and color have its day in the sun and the black has held on the
longest.
99.99% of Americans think they are buying Angus beef in every super market, restaurant and fast food chain.
The closest that a lot of this beef got to being Angus was standing by one in the feed lot.
Camelot will fall on this I am certain. This makes me wonder how we let ourselves get roped into
this predicament and what are we going to do when a black hide is docked.

:wave:

PS -- Hadn't seen you post in a while, CB ... good to see you alive and kicking. :)
Thank's hadn't been this frisky in a while.
I have been a pretty sick boy for the last year and half.
Dr's have shot me with everything except a BB gun I have lost 60 pounds and not trying.
You name the specialty or orifice they deal with I have seen them.
Seems the leading GI doc in SE Texas has finally figured it out, have felt better in the
last couple weeks than I have in a year. I was to the point I was fixing to go through Herman ER
the number one in Texas if this last Dr, didn't figure it out.
 
Well, Glad that I could help stir up the emotions :) and see your feeling better. :tiphat:

The "Angus Meat" that so many people are looking for at the market and restaurants are pushed for the marbling, that is what I hear from some of the processors: but many of the people requesting it do not have a clue to the actual meat other than the name "Angus". Many breeds (pure or cross) have good carcasses but not the published name. The hide is pushed at the sale barn.
But basically we want the "big butts, and cannot lie" for sales of calves.
The "Black Hide" phenomenon to change would be a disaster for some commercial small farmers, and others could just simply change their Bull as stated. But we all know to make that change all it would take would be a small but vocal political group to either find something wrong with the "black hide" or to find something better with another color "red, white, green, or yellow" and push that issue in the right community setting to succeed.

So what do we do as breeders to help diversify and strengthen the baseline needed?
Is it to keep arguing over whose breed is the best?
Work together on two or three way crosses?
Move away or towards purebreeding?
 
Charolais would help knock a lot of that black off. You would get yellow and smokey color calves with the first generation then the 2nd generation you would start getting white and yellow calves with only a few smokeys. If the black ever started getting docked you could make it work it just might take a little time. That's what I would do. I don't see it getting docked anytime soon though but you never know with cattle.
 

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