Herding Dogs advice

[cow pollinater]

It depends on what you need help with. A heeler can help you push cows around all day long with no training if that's all you need but if you're looking for a second cowboy then you need to be looking at border collies or kelpies.
Training wise, we would never take a two year old horse and slap a saddle on him for his first time and go do a days work and expect him to act like the teenage ranch gelding and yet we do that to dogs all the time and then blame the dog if they don't perform... You'll get what you pay for someone else to do or what you put in yourself. If you get more than that it's a dam good dog that would be better if you put the time in.
For me, I don't want any more border collies. They are the best working dogs and the easiest to train but if it's over 90 degrees they literally have to quit and go swim in the water trough. On flat ground they're better but with heat and a hill climb they're done for the day.

 

[Shanghai]

Slick haired leggy cattle bred dogs can handle it

 

[pdfangus]

this has been a good thread....

I have had Australian Shepherds for near thirty years....

I used to use them on the cows and had one who was born knowing more about how to work cows than I do today.....but her daddy was once listed as one of the top ten dogs in the breed......he would work ducks sheep cattle anything....

I have had some that knew they should do something about that cow but were not sure what or how....

the Aussie achieved some popularity and as always happens with popular dogs a lot of them lost their native ability....

my advice is buy from someone who know what they are doing and get them to teach you....

one thing....basic obedience training....sit, stay, down, come, no....are things all dogs should have....and aussies will learn it quick....

why aussies for me....orignally I wanted a heeler....then I saw a good aussie work at a stockyard to sort a bad mannered young bull out of a group of bulls....once the bull was on the trailer...the owner told the dog truck and the dog went to the back of the truck and hopped in and laid down for hours....they are all that smart....they are just not all cowy any more...

to me an aussie strikes a balance between the grit an toughness of the heeler and the obsessivness of the border collie....border collies have to have a job and they have to do it....

I have had two aussies save my bacon by getting bad cows off of me....one of them broke out of the house to come save me...still do not know how she got that door open....

my last four have been from Aussie Rescue but they are not stock dogs....there are great aussie stockdogs...I just don't need em and I can save an aussie by rescuing one....

 

[Stocker Steve]

to me an aussie strikes a balance between the grit an toughness of the heeler and the obsessivness of the border collie....border collies have to have a job and they have to do it....

I have had two aussies save my bacon by getting bad cows off of me....one of them broke out of the house to come save me...still do not know how she got that door open....

my last four have been from Aussie Rescue but they are not stock dogs....there are great aussie stockdogs...

Several of the women at my clinic have a rescued Aussie for a family dog...
Is there a herding or working association?

 

[cow pollinater]

Are herding dogs similar in that not all dogs from a given litter will perform when trained adults?
Tim

YES! My big border collie that is training two catahoulas for me was free to me as my cousin had him and was breeding him as he's papered up one side and down the other but only half of his pups want to work no matter what they breed him to. He's lazy for me but will work and is trained better than my horses so I get by with him but won't breed him.
I bred a heeler bytch(accidently) that came from imported stock to a border collie/kelpie and kept four male pups out of the litter and not one of them wanted anything to do with stock. I wound up giving them away as pets. A little girl took the runt female of the litter and when her parents got divorced a year ago asked me if I'd take the dog back... I did and she's turned into a really great dog. I need to spend a little time with her but she wants to WORK.

 

[cow pollinater]

this has been a good thread....

I have had Australian Shepherds for near thirty years....

I used to use them on the cows and had one who was born knowing more about how to work cows than I do today.....but her daddy was once listed as one of the top ten dogs in the breed......he would work ducks sheep cattle anything....

I have had some that knew they should do something about that cow but were not sure what or how....

the Aussie achieved some popularity and as always happens with popular dogs a lot of them lost their native ability....

my advice is buy from someone who know what they are doing and get them to teach you....

one thing....basic obedience training....sit, stay, down, come, no....are things all dogs should have....and aussies will learn it quick....

why aussies for me....orignally I wanted a heeler....then I saw a good aussie work at a stockyard to sort a bad mannered young bull out of a group of bulls....once the bull was on the trailer...the owner told the dog truck and the dog went to the back of the truck and hopped in and laid down for hours....they are all that smart....they are just not all cowy any more...

to me an aussie strikes a balance between the grit an toughness of the heeler and the obsessivness of the border collie....border collies have to have a job and they have to do it....

I have had two aussies save my bacon by getting bad cows off of me....one of them broke out of the house to come save me...still do not know how she got that door open....

my last four have been from Aussie Rescue but they are not stock dogs....there are great aussie stockdogs...I just don't need em and I can save an aussie by rescuing one....

My dad is the same way. I literally learned how to walk hanging onto an aussies collar. They've had some that were as good as it gets and some that I made disapear for them and they were happy not to ask but another one always shows up. This time I think they've found a really good line. If it wasn't for all the hair I'd try them myself.

 

[pdfangus]

to me an aussie strikes a balance between the grit an toughness of the heeler and the obsessivness of the border collie....border collies have to have a job and they have to do it....

I have had two aussies save my bacon by getting bad cows off of me....one of them broke out of the house to come save me...still do not know how she got that door open....

my last four have been from Aussie Rescue but they are not stock dogs....there are great aussie stockdogs...

Several of the women at my clinic have a rescued Aussie for a family dog...
Is there a herding or working association?

there used to be herding locally but I have not been active in the local Aussie groups for a while....I know a lady who has border collies and she goes somewhere almost every weekend to work sheep.....

I would contact some breeders and one of them may be able to point you at some working groups....our state aussie club just to have herding clinics and such but then the show folks took over and there was less emphasis on the herding and I sort of dropped out as that was around the time we bought the farm and I had enough to do.....

 

[pdfangus]

Cow Pollinator, I have taking to giving mine a spring haircut...usually in May. not always easy but it does make the house a little tidier....... and quieter.....

 

[wbvs58]

I have two Kelpies. The youngest is about 20 months old now, he is from strong working families and straight out of the box he had a strong desire to head the cattle. I had trouble getting him in behind them but now we have that sorted and I can still send him around them. I have found the sit command to be my most powerfull tool for him, it gives me and him a bit of time to think about things and from there I can put him anywhere now. I think as he matures he is going to be a very good dog, I just wish I had more work for him.
I think Border Collies are the easiest to train as they are naturally very obedient. They say that when you tell kelpies to do something they ask "why" where BC just do as they are told. I would totally agree with this, my bitch is a classic example, she is very smart but thinks she knows everything and prefers to do what she thinks is best. Since I have been training the new dog and she has been missing out a bit when she does get work she is working very strong but has been spot on with where she is putting them, just a bit too strong.
Ken

 

[Gators Rule]

I use a dog daily on my place and have bred and trained Border Collies for about 30 years. I would suggest that if you do not
have a dog training background your best approach would be to buy a started dog from a good working bloodline suited for
your type of stock. I would also suggest you work a deal with someone with good dogs to come and "dog-break" your cow
herd. This does not mean letting someone come and abuse your cattle, but to use strong dogs to train them to respect a dog.

A young, inexperienced dog can get run-off by mature cows that have never seen a dog. Training cows can be done in a couple
sessions with good dogs by gathering and holding up the herd. The dogs need to be able to put cows that want to "quit the bunch"
back into the herd and once they return leave them alone. If the group is really tough the dogs may need to bite most of the
cows a time or two, but they must not harass individuals. Once cows are "dog-broke" they will remember it the rest of their life.

To be successful in a real working environment a dog doesn't need a lot of commands, but you need control of the dog. Depending
on how you work your cattle will determine what type of dog you want. For woods or swamps baying-type dogs may work, but
they don't typically drive well, heelers are driving dogs and typically won't cover a herd well, Border collies are popular because
they can gather (that's their natural instinct) and they can be taught to drive as well as fetch.

Bottom line, in my opinion, you can't expect a young, untrained dog of any breed to be a lot of help and putting a young dog in
bad situations too many times will take strength out of them that you can never put back.

To answer your other question, I am in Louisiana and its hot, the length of hair or breed of dog does not make as much difference
as the nature of the individual. A pup that is "wrapped too tight" will burn himself out much quicker.

If I can be any more help, just ask. By the way, Len Dalton passed away last year.

Thank you everyone! Lots of great advice!

Lane, I'm going to take your advice and start looking around now.

David

 

[plumber_greg]

I got a border collie last year, maybe year before. He was trained and goin' to be in the some kind of Ok. futurity. He got kicked in the back hip, broke it and they removed his hip. I was able to buy him at a reduced price, however still high. My question, I want to get a female pup. How hard is it to train one with another. You gotta' realize, I seem to change commands every day. Snoop Dog just knows what I want, he looks at me, I point, say something, and he does it. Wouldn't take 50k for him. Would a started dog work better, or should a pup start with a dog she is gonna' be working with? Thanks for the opinions guys. Greg

 

[cow pollinater]

Greg, it depends on the dog in my experience. If they want to work really bad and have a lot of desire to please you then you can make some okay dogs that way.
As far as changing commands, my cousin is a working cowboy and his wife does dog trials and trains all of the dogs and he takes them when they're ready for real ranch work. He complained to her about the dogs pausing and not taking direction well and she asked him to show her... It turns out that they were using "come" and "away" differently and the dogs were learning on their own that the commands were switched. :lol: The dog that I have from them I just tell to "come" and he goes whichever direction he thinks is best. He has a list of commands that he knows but I only know, come, walk up, and G!@-D@#$%! and he does just fine with those.

 

[plumber_greg]

CP, G!@-D@$%! is my favorite command!!!!! That usually occurs when Snoop Dog thinks he knows better than me what to do. gs

 

[Shanghai]

http://www.midwestproducer.com/news/art ... f887a.html

 

[Rniemann]

I pick my first hangin tree cattle dog up this coming weekend. I have been researching for some time and this dog seems to be the ultimate breed. I guess we will see.