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the Black Hereford cows eliminate the common udder and eye problems found in red Herefords. but they seem to retain the red Herfords docility and mothering instincts.
Hate to break it to ya, but that black color don't eliminate pinkeye. Treated several registered Angus over the years for it. This year so far haven't had much pinkeye but have treated as many BWF as red straightbred Herefords. Some individual lines seem to be more susceptible to pinkeye due to the way their eyes are set in their heads. Most all of our pinkeye cases can be tracked to one particular bull that we kept several daughters of.
 
I don't doubt you at all, just going by my observations for the past 6o years. My next door neighbor growing up, raised registered Herefords and Tenn Walkers all my life, til 1975. I came home from college one weekend in 75, and he had sold out his Herefords, and replaced them with Charolais... the old cow killer, pallet-headed kind that we first had around here. But, I remember him always having some Herefords in his lot by his horse barn, with eye patches and that yellow or blue spray on the. My grandfather always had angus cows, mostly, and we never had a pink eye case. Come to think of it, the few herefords and baldies he'd have from time to time, never did either. Hell, I have had it several times in my life, though! This new client I am helping, is below the gnat line ( around Perry, GA and points south), and they can be brutal! I dread going down there tomorrow.. the Downy dryer sheets help some, but they will still fill your eyes, ears, nose and mouth when you are outside. I think he'd do better with Brahma cows and a Hereford or Black Hereford bull, than the other way around.

The bull you mentioned that you traced most of your pinkeye cases to.. was he Hereford or Angus?
 
I don't doubt you at all, just going by my observations for the past 6o years. My next door neighbor growing up, raised registered Herefords and Tenn Walkers all my life, til 1975. I came home from college one weekend in 75, and he had sold out his Herefords, and replaced them with Charolais... the old cow killer, pallet-headed kind that we first had around here. But, I remember him always having some Herefords in his lot by his horse barn, with eye patches and that yellow or blue spray on the. My grandfather always had angus cows, mostly, and we never had a pink eye case. Come to think of it, the few herefords and baldies he'd have from time to time, never did either. Hell, I have had it several times in my life, though! This new client I am helping, is below the gnat line ( around Perry, GA and points south), and they can be brutal! I dread going down there tomorrow.. the Downy dryer sheets help some, but they will still fill your eyes, ears, nose and mouth when you are outside. I think he'd do better with Brahma cows and a Hereford or Black Hereford bull, than the other way around.

The bull you mentioned that you traced most of your pinkeye cases to.. was he Hereford or Angus?
That bull was a Hereford. There are a lot of factors that can have an effect on pinkeye. Flies, irritation from seed head/stems, dust, nutritional needs and usually a combination of some or all those are usually present during a pinkeye outbreak. I have fought with pinkeye over the years and never had a pure Hereford until fairly recent years. There for a while I would have it under control then seemed like when I would bring in a bull he would soon get and it would spread around a bit and that's with registered Angus cattle. So I think that had to do with different strains of pinkeye being introduced. The eye set in the heads of cattle even Herefords can affect how susceptible they they to their eyes getting irritated. Ever notice the way Brahman and Brahman cross cattle's eyes are set kind of deep an protected. I have a Hereford calf this year with big bugging out eyes that are right out in the open well past his head. To most folks they would think oh that's cute but in reality probably just a matter of time before he comes down with it. No doubt pinkeye is one of the reasons Herefords fell out of favor but selective breeding has been done to improve upon eyes and udders as well, though problematic individuals are still out there.
 
That bull was a Hereford. There are a lot of factors that can have an effect on pinkeye. Flies, irritation from seed head/stems, dust, nutritional needs and usually a combination of some or all those are usually present during a pinkeye outbreak. I have fought with pinkeye over the years and never had a pure Hereford until fairly recent years. There for a while I would have it under control then seemed like when I would bring in a bull he would soon get and it would spread around a bit and that's with registered Angus cattle. So I think that had to do with different strains of pinkeye being introduced. The eye set in the heads of cattle even Herefords can affect how susceptible they they to their eyes getting irritated. Ever notice the way Brahman and Brahman cross cattle's eyes are set kind of deep an protected. I have a Hereford calf this year with big bugging out eyes that are right out in the open well past his head. To most folks they would think oh that's cute but in reality probably just a matter of time before he comes down with it. No doubt pinkeye is one of the reasons Herefords fell out of favor but selective breeding has been done to improve upon eyes and udders as well, though problematic individuals are still out there.
That makes sense about the eye set. That's why I think given this location, he'd do better with a herd of Brahma cows and Hereford bulls, rather than a herd of Herefords, and Brahma bulls. I think the udder and eye things were traits that the developers of Black Herefords selected for in determining the Hereford genetics they used, and just didn't depend on the Angus blood to improve on these.
 
The Hereford Brahman F1 cross is like no other. It's really amazing.
It sure is. And I am finding that a lot of ranchers actually prefer these F1s to registered Brafords. I am eager to see how those F! Brahma x Black Herefords turn out. They are coming on 5 mos old now, so another 18 or 19 months before we see how their calves stack up to calves from regular FI Br x Her. And see if they are as good a mommas as their tiger-striped cousins are.
 
That makes sense about the eye set. That's why I think given this location, he'd do better with a herd of Brahma cows and Hereford bulls, rather than a herd of Herefords, and Brahma bulls. I think the udder and eye things were traits that the developers of Black Herefords selected for in determining the Hereford genetics they used, and just didn't depend on the Angus blood to improve on these.
Yes, if doing that cross, Brahman cows would be better in terms of environment and calving than the reciprocal.
I would honestly be just concerned about the Angus blood as the Hereford. Neither breed are what they used to be.
 
As soon as you put "black" in to the equation you lost what makes the F1 Braford special.

To make great F1s you still need quality parents of each breed. Crossing trash to trash just makes F1 trash.

Do you have pictures of the calves? What color did they end up?
 
As soon as you put "black" in to the equation you lost what makes the F1 Braford special.

To make great F1s you still need quality parents of each breed. Crossing trash to trash just makes F1 trash.

Do you have pictures of the calves? What color did they end up?
Pretty sure he ordered semen from the top Black Hereford sires available. Same thing with his Brahma bulls. So, no trash there. It will be interesting to see though, if the calves from those Black Braford cows, bred to Angus bulls, will have the same hybrid vigor as calves from an Angus x F1 Braford does.

No I don't have any pics. I guess I should, but whenever I am doing something with the cows, I leave my phone in the truck before I climb into the saddle. They ought to be weaning the calves in August, and if they need me, I will try to take some pics then. They look like other Brafords, just black where regular ones are red or brindled. Like black baldies with ears and leather.
 
Pretty sure he ordered semen from the top Black Hereford sires available. Same thing with his Brahma bulls. So, no trash there. It will be interesting to see though, if the calves from those Black Braford cows, bred to Angus bulls, will have the same hybrid vigor as calves from an Angus x F1 Braford does.

No I don't have any pics. I guess I should, but whenever I am doing something with the cows, I leave my phone in the truck before I climb into the saddle. They ought to be weaning the calves in August, and if they need me, I will try to take some pics then. They look like other Brafords, just black where regular ones are red or brindled. Like black baldies with ears and leather.
Black Herefords are a composite at best... that's being nice. The "F1" mother will not be like a true red Hereford crossed to a Brahman.

I'm a little surprised the black and white dominated all the calves. If you give a Brahman any chance in a gene pool they will grey them, fade them, stripe them, or throw some tie died, cookies and cream, version of the colors. Even the purest of black Angus can get faded in to brown stripes. Same with the red and white of Herefords... it has multiple color variations. Both of those colors have been stabilized far longer than the black Herefords.
 
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One thing I will say, and this is strictly a matter of opinion, I will treat a dozen cases of pinkeye before I have a single eared cow on my place. I've had amazing luck with SimmentalXRed Angus cross and Hereford has played a role in my operation. I've even crossed in some charolais in last few years and those buckskin calves have been great. I have several simangus cows that are raising their 11th calf as I type this. Easy conditioning, longevity, docility, they have it all! But…….I also don't mind paying a premium for a bull that fits my goal. He is HALF of everything I plan to accomplish for the next few years so I'm not for skimping on bull quality to save a few thousand bucks. Every breed gets blamed for something, but I think we should start looking at the good traits and stop being lazy and work to prevent the things that we lay blame for. My $.02.
 
We run mostly Hereford, and Angus type cows, have a small number of horn and ear influenced cattle too. If all things were equal I'd probably just have pretty much straight Herefords, just because of overall docility. We put flytags in today and weaned some calves. Calves were by a Hereford bull and a home raised BWF bull, easiest group of calves I've worked in 20 years. We have a few cases of pinkeye a year, sometimes just one or two sometimes probably around a dozen. I have always wanted to incorporate more Brahman influence into the herd as I think it would help minimize pinkeye. There aren't many Brahmans around here now a days, a few crosses can be found here and there. The ones I have had have been fairly docile, although they can get mad pretty quick if pushed. We have one that is dog gentle, opened the barn door and she came right in this morning and went right in a stall. She gets mad and ready to fight as soon as she gets caught in head gate. As soon as she comes out she's back to just lumbering along. Have a couple though that could hold a grudge, but were usually ok as long as they were given plenty of space and not pressured. Over all we have found Angus have been consistently the difficult and most dangerous to work with. Even the little Angus calves can be little kicking machines and will try to go through or under the gates. In the interest of being even handed in critiquing we also had one Hereford bull that sometimes sired calves that could be He77 cats too, that is the same bull that also had a lot of pinkeye problems in his calves as well as excessive and odd white markings.
 
Black Herefords are a composite at best... that's being nice. The "F1" mother will not be like a true red Hereford crossed to a Brahman.

I'm a little surprised the black and white dominated all the calves. If you give a Brahman any chance in a gene pool they will grey them, fade them, stripe them, or throw some tie died, cookies and cream, version of the colors. Even the purest of black Angus can get faded in to brown stripes. Same with the red and white of Herefords... it has multiple color variations. Both of those colors have been stabilized far longer than the black Herefords.
Well, Black Herefords are no more "composite breed trash" than any other 3/8ths Brahma like Brangus, Braford, Beefmaster, Sant Gertrudis etc. The Black Hereford has been a stabilized breed for about 20 years now. There is a youtube video that has been posted on these forums before, from Univ of Iowa about Heteratosis. It contains a chart of all the most common breeds, and the 2 British breeds that shared the least DNA, were the Angus and Herford. Much more genetic diversity than any of the Continental breeds., thus the maximum hybrid vigor. This is why the black baldies are so popular. The breeders that developed the Black Herford, used genetics from the best of the best of the Hereford, and the best of the best of Angus. You will find more "trash" among the average Herefords and the average Angus, than in the Black Hereford. By most accounts, the founders of the breed were successful in achieving their goal: preserving the docility and maternal traits of the Hereford, while incorporating the traits that make Angus #1. Those are better udders, better marbling, fewer foot and eye problems than Herefords, with the bonus of being homozygous for black, while tempering the tendency of Angus to be too good of a mother with new calves. The main focus of developing this breed, was to have cows and bulls to breed to angus cows and bulls for calves that you can guarantee will be black baldies.

I am attaching a pdf that @Caustic Burno has shared before, that shows that the best cross with Bos taurus and bos indicus is Brahma and Herford, specifically, Brahma bulls on Hereford cows. Next is Brahma on Angus. So with black baldies being undeniably the best British cross breeds, and Br X Her being the best indicus x taurus cross, and Br x Ang being the 2nd best. there is no reason to think that an F1 Br x Black Hereford cow would not be as good...and most likely superior to... the Br x Her F1s.

I was a boy when people first brought Brahmas to my area of Ga. Most everyone that bought a Brahma bull had angus cows. I doubt many of then were registered Angus that were homozygous BB for black. But, I don't recall seeing many Br x Angus crosses that weren't black. And people had some Brahma cows that they bred to an angus, and probably most of them were grade angus bulls, most likely not tested Homozygous BB for black either, so they may have had some red or brown calves as well.

The 12 Black Hereford cows he bought were homozygous PP polled, and homozygous BB black. The Br bull he used is white and polled. The Brahma cows he uses are all registered and are white and polled. The BH semen he used, was from homozygous black and polled bulls. So, that was the reason the calves were all uniform black. He also bred some Brahma cows to registered Chi-Angus bulls.. about 30 I think...and these calves are all black too. Look just like an F1 Brangus, only bigger.

As far as using these F1 Brahma x Black Herfords as brood cows, they will be only heterazygous black. Using a homozygous black bull, you'd get all black calves, but so would you using regular F1 Brahma X Hereford cows. If your black bull isn't homozygous black, then you are as liable to get a different colored calf with these Br x B He as you would using Br x Hereford. IF he and others actually do go ahead and pursue developing a Black Braford, then these will be homozygous for black cows, but I doubt I will be around to see them.
 

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You are right that they are not different than another composite breed being crossed back to a Brahman.

The magic happens in the first cross to either a Hereford or Angus. There are tons of articles on the first cross and their performance. Do you have some on the Black Hereford X Brahman?

I'm not against breeding good cattle to good cattle. There are plenty of great crossbred commercial cattle. There are also some real junky F1s. There is more to the F1s than colors and looking like they will do a job.
 
You are right that they are not different than another composite breed being crossed back to a Brahman.

The magic happens in the first cross to either a Hereford or Angus. There are tons of articles on the first cross and their performance. Do you have some on the Black Hereford X Brahman?

I'm not against breeding good cattle to good cattle. There are plenty of great crossbred commercial cattle. There are also some real junky F1s. There is more to the F1s than colors and looking like they will do a job.
Well, no, I don't have any articles on them, since the first ones I ever heard of are coming 5 months old. I imagine it will be a while before we see what kind of calf-raisers they will be.

I don't know a lot about Brahma genetics, but this man ...being one of the top Brangus producers in the country, selling embryos for more money than I haver sold a trailer load of cattle for in the past... has researched the Brahma blood he used fairly well. The Black Hereford genetics he used, was definitely the top of the line in that breed. The Ultra Black Baldies he produced last year....Brangus x Black Hereford... are far superior to any Brangus X Hereford baldies I have seen. But then again, most of them you see are from red, white faced cows that are called Herefords, that may be 10 generations from having any Hereford registration papers, and may be from grade Brangus bulls and cows as well. Where as, these were from his six-figure Brangus sires and five-figure Brangus cows, so of course those calves were awesome.
 
No studies or papers on the cross... interesting. Ill keep an eye out.

Forgive me but dollars dont impress me.
As far as correlating dollar amounts to actual quality of cattle, the money doesn't impress me either. In actuality some of those 10 generations away from registered stock doesn't mean that they are necessarily inferior animals. A lot of times those cows will work out better than high dollar registered ones.
 

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