Heat Sync

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Jake

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Had 39 (37 hfrs, 2 cows) head set up for this past weekend. Used the 7 day CIDR protocol. GNRH + CIDR, pull CIDR a week later give a shot of prostaglandin. We heat detected and AIed on schedule for 3 days giving a shot of GNRH at breeding. At 72 hours post CIDR pull we bred 7 heifers that showed no sign of heat and gave them a shot of GNRH.

One cow displayed heat but was never standing, the other cow I noticed stringing but never displayed any other signs of heat and was a royal pain in the butt to breed, never could get to the cervix, she would stand all hunched up and with so much pressure there was no progress. Two of us tried her to try to salvage a $40 straw but to no avail I highly doubt she conceives AI. She was a pain last year as well so I will no longer be wasting my time trying to AI her.


Want to know if anybody has a strong opinion on length of needle used when injecting the sync drugs. Guy we had set them up used a 16 gauge 1" needle and I didn't feel like it was adequate, I prefer an 1.5" 18 gauge. With only getting 30/37 heifers to come in I am looking for explanations as to why we had such a high percentage not exhibit heat. The majority didn't really feel like they were in heat by the texture of their reproductive tract either so I don't think it was a miss in detection I just think they flat didn't come in.
 

cow pollinater

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I know a reproduction specialist from one of the studs that troubleshoots on dairies and one of the first things he does is throw away all of their 1" needles.
My first questions are always were they cycling before they were synced and how were the drugs stored before they were used?
 
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Jake

Jake

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cow pollinater":1ukvtecv said:
I know a reproduction specialist from one of the studs that troubleshoots on dairies and one of the first things he does is throw away all of their 1" needles.
My first questions are always were they cycling before they were synced and how were the drugs stored before they were used?


Pretty sure all were cycling, by feel I would say there was one that may not have been. Drugs were all refrigerated from pick up at vet until use.
 

wbvs58

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For most of those thin easy flowing reproductive drugs I just use the green needles, 21g x 11/2". I do like the depth into the muscle but like the smaller guage needle as long as the substance injects easy just with jabbing them all the time i try to make it as easy on them as I can.
With those difficult breeders that I can't get I will put a new glove on, clean them up and put my arm directly into the vagina with the rod in the palm of my hand and find the cervix with my index finger and try and get the tip into the cervix and then with thumb and index finger try and pull and work the cervix over the top of the rod. I usually retrieve about 50% like that, one cow I successfully breed her like that every year. It is not easy to get it through that way but I do have some success with what would be an otherwise wasted straw.

Ken
 

Lucky_P

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Synched a group of 22 cows & heifers last week (5-day protocol; has been working well for us the past 3 years); all cows were at least 60 days post calving, and in good body condition.
Had 16 come into heat and bred in the first 3 days...but then one in heat at 96 hrs, two at 130 hrs, and two more at 150+hrs. 2 more that will get popped with Estrumate again tomorrow if they've not cycled in on their own, as they'll be 10-11 days post CIDR pull/pgf inj.

I have some doubts that needle length is really important. 1", 1.5"...not that much difference. Intramuscular is intramuscular.
Personally, I prefer a 1"
 

bse

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I use 7 day with 18x1.5 needle in the hip, i think the deeper in that muscle the better.
I did 35 last week mix of cows and hefiers, 5 hefiers actually responded at 36 hours bred them at 48. Had 32 out of the 35 respond, out of the 3 nonresponders 2 cows 1 hefier. 1 cow was definitely in heat, she is the boss cow I think sometimes they just wont mess with those cows, thats why I breed them all at 72 hours no matter if they stood.
Looks like Jake got around 77 % with 7 day. Lucky P got around 73% with the 5 day, with 1 inch needles. I got 91% with 1.5 needles. Now all that said next year it can totally flip flop,. Whatever protocols works here or there can change, mother nature still plays her part.
Im ok with any of these percentages, Jake id bet you get 30% of your nonresponders. Sometimes if im breeding at 60 and 72 ill give the gnrh to the nonresponders at 60 then everything gets bred anyway at 72 so it gives the gnrh a little time before breeding.
 

Lucky_P

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bse,
I don't think length of needle has anything to do with it, but if I had 1.5" needles, I wouldn't throw 'em out.
2013 Spring breeding season - 5 day protocol(1" needle) we got 90%(20 of 22) calving to single AI service.
2014 Spring - essentially the same group of cows (22) same protocol, only about half cycled in. Let the bull have the rest of them, as it was getting hot...calving in 2015 was spread out - 12 calves in the first two weeks, remainder trickling in over the next 6+ weeks.

2015 - same cows, plus a group of 17 mo heifers - results were as I recounted above, most in heat between 36 and 72 hrs... but those 5 tail-enders coming in 5,6,7 days out from CIDR-pull.
Will be pulling in the group of 2014 bull-bred cows this coming weekend, just now coming to 45 days post-calving; will hit them all with Estrumate, breed any that come in, then CIDR the rest.
 

Dave

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I bred 45 heifers using the 7 day protocol and timed AI. There were a couple we could get into the cervix. But other than those the rest seemed good. The clean up bull has been in for 10 days now and he appears to be just eating and standing around with nothing to do. I used 1 inch 18 ga needles.
 

Ohrmundt Simmentals

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We had 10 14 month old heifers set up and bred 2 weeks ago so we don't know the results. We have been doing the 7 day with CIDR's for 5 or 6 years. We are pretty close to 70% every year on first service. We give all IM drugs with a 18ga 1.50" needle. We also vac and worm on day 1 when the CIDR's are put in. Seems to working. The tech this year said even the ones that had not really shown standing heat still felt really good and all had really good clear discharge. We don't set up a big group but it never fails that every year. One always comes in standing and gets bred the night before the rest of the group. Out of those that have come in heat first. Non of them have needed a 2nd service.
 

bse

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Lucky P
Your post there kinda proves the point I was trying to make.
Theres differences from year to year, no matter the protocol or needle size. I think they have averages for a reason, over several years it hits. Just the way I see it.
 

Lucky_P

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Yeah. It's gonna vary from season to season. Sometimes, even if you're 'doing everything right', results are not optimum.

ABS rep, who also works for the KY Cattleman's Assn. was trying to tell me about the 'great new' synch program they were doing with heifers - and were getting 60% conception rates on timed breeding, etc. When he told me 60%... I'm going..."My boss(wife) would not like a conception rate that LOW!"

Yearling heifers here are all AI - no natural service on them at present; cows get one AI service and are turned out to the bulls.
 

Fire Sweep Ranch

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wbvs58":2fl5dbwc said:
For most of those thin easy flowing reproductive drugs I just use the green needles, 21g x 11/2". I do like the depth into the muscle but like the smaller guage needle as long as the substance injects easy just with jabbing them all the time i try to make it as easy on them as I can.
With those difficult breeders that I can't get I will put a new glove on, clean them up and put my arm directly into the vagina with the rod in the palm of my hand and find the cervix with my index finger and try and get the tip into the cervix and then with thumb and index finger try and pull and work the cervix over the top of the rod. I usually retrieve about 50% like that, one cow I successfully breed her like that every year. It is not easy to get it through that way but I do have some success with what would be an otherwise wasted straw.

Ken

Ken, in the case of the ones you go vaginally, would using a speculum like we do in horses work? That way, you can see, using a pen light, and know you are at the tip of the cervix, and then have your hand rectally to manipulate the cervix over the rod?.... Just thinking of the way horses are AI
 

wbvs58

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Fire Sweep Ranch":1fcmyarw said:
wbvs58":1fcmyarw said:
For most of those thin easy flowing reproductive drugs I just use the green needles, 21g x 11/2". I do like the depth into the muscle but like the smaller guage needle as long as the substance injects easy just with jabbing them all the time i try to make it as easy on them as I can.
With those difficult breeders that I can't get I will put a new glove on, clean them up and put my arm directly into the vagina with the rod in the palm of my hand and find the cervix with my index finger and try and get the tip into the cervix and then with thumb and index finger try and pull and work the cervix over the top of the rod. I usually retrieve about 50% like that, one cow I successfully breed her like that every year. It is not easy to get it through that way but I do have some success with what would be an otherwise wasted straw.

Ken

Ken, in the case of the ones you go vaginally, would using a speculum like we do in horses work? That way, you can see, using a pen light, and know you are at the tip of the cervix, and then have your hand rectally to manipulate the cervix over the rod?.... Just thinking of the way horses are AI
Kris, this is the occaisional cow that because they are making it difficult through straining or just constantly moving you can't get your hand around the cervix rectally or at least I can't, I do have problems with my hands. I think working with a speculum and then trying to go rectally on a difficult cow would be difficult to do. The cow cervix is a lot different to a horse, the horse seems a lot more flaccid and open during oestrus and easier to penetrate from the vagina and not as long. The occaisional cow will be penetrated by just pushing and a little wriggling once it is started by being guided by the index finger but most times it needs to have the cervix pulled over the top of the rod. I usually try and keep my finger and thumb free of lube so I can get hold of it.
I know my method is not ideal but it has allowed me to breed some cows with semen that was already thawed and would have otherwise been just shot into the void of the vagina and wasted otherwise. I have not seen any detrimental affect to the cow, If I get them they are in calf, if I miss them they are in oestrus 21 days later and go in calf to the bull.
Ken
 

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