Having lots of trouble

[FortinFarm]

This season we had about 20 first time heifers. These girls aren't going into labor soon enough and today we delivered a 120lb stillborn. What can we do to get labor going in these heiffers before we lose any more calves? So far we have delivered 13 and lost 7.

 

[dun]

For the rest of the heifers there isn;t a whole lot you can do. Don;t feed them very heavy in the 3rd trimester and pcorrect bull selectcion goes a long way to preventing BW problems.

 

[regolith]

If you think they're going overdue, talk to a vet about your options. It sounds unlikely in first calvers, but there are instances where the calf might not trigger the birthing process.

If it's genetics, or nutrition, as Dun says, not a lot you can do at this stage. What breed/cross is producing those weights?
As for bringing on birthing - frost, rain, sunshine, mud, storms are all reputed to have an effect. Three of those fall under the rule of nature known as "Sod's Law".

 

[hillsdown]

Where is you location ?

Dun is very correct about late term and high feed intake increasing birth weights. Winter calving for us is always tricky when dealing heifers , 2 weeks of -40 weather a month before they calve screws everything up.

 

[angus9259]

Underfeeding leads to more problems than overfeeding even though birth weights go up.

I bought a group of baldy heifers and a group of limflex heifers bred to the same angus bull in the pasture. The baldy heifers held their calves 10-14 days past due. The Limflex came on time. Lost better than half the calves and one cow that came late due to calf size. I don't think it was BREED related at all, but am convinced it was genetic related. I sold the group of baldies after that season. I'm sure I could have kept them for terminal calves, but was growing my herd at the time and didn't want that carrying through.

Gestation length is certainly a heritable trait.

 

[FortinFarm]

We are in Maine, and it's the middle of summer so I doubt that it's cold temperatures, haha.

Part of the problem is that we were mislead about the age of our bull, I think. We bought him last spring and he was about 1200lbs, and now he looks like he is well over a ton. He is the biggest Angus I have ever seen, and we bred him with angus and charlet heifers. The few angus heifers we had seem to be doing much better with the large cows, but we lost another one over the weekend. We are calling a vet this morning because it's getting to the point that if we don't do something we will lose our cows, too.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Underfeeding leads to more problems than overfeeding even though birth weights go up."
Research has proven this time & time again.

Now, if your animals are in good BCS, then overfeeding the last trimester can cause bigger calves.
If you know EXACTLY when each heifer is due, the vet can give you the drugs to induce labor.
But, sounds like your problem started when the bull met the ladies. Either the heifers are too small, have too small a pelvic area, or the bull was a hard calver and should never have been used on heifers. Or a combo of all of the above.
How much do the heifers weigh? What BCS are they?
BCS: http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/beef/400-795/photos1-9.html
How long are you waiting before you try to assist?

 

[FortinFarm]

All cows in good BCS. I do believe that the problem is the size ratio of our bull to the heifers because he is now quite large. We have all of our pregnant ladies in the barn and they are being checked every three hours for signs of labor. We assist as soon as feet are showing, and this has helped but we are still delivering dead calfs.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Are they so large that you can't get them out quick enough - or do you think they are already dead when the cow is going into labor?

 

[IL cow man]

Calving size is a 50/50 situation. The cow or heifer has as much to do with calf size as the bull. The best way to explain it is if you breed a horse to a donkey you get a mule. You are breeding two largely different sized animals with success. It sounds to me like your Charolais are throwing big calves which is their natural tendency. Breeding to an Angus bull doesn't necessarily mean easy calving. EPD's are a tool. You can take a high birth weight cow and breed her to low birth weight bull and lower the birth weight EPD, however that calf has 50/50 chance of either throwing heavy calves or lighter weight calves. It's about like drawing straws. There are also bulls that their calves tend to come sooner in gestation than others, also. I don't know anything about your heifers. In the past Charolais had a problem with double muscling. The real problem was the calves were double muscling before birth and created large problems with distocia( calving difficulties). No matter what you decide I would get rid of both the bull and the heifers. You can induce them to calve earlier, but you need to know the breeding dates. I believe you can induce them up to 10 days early. Each day is equal to 1lb in calf size the last 30 days. I'm not a vet or reproductive specialist but these are things I've heard over the years.

 

[Lucky_P]

Sounds most like a 'genetics' problem - and the physical size of the bull is not the issue - it's the genetics behind the bull, the heifers, or both.
Not all Angus bulls are 'calving ease' sires - some sire high birthweights or conformations that don't lend themselves to the calves being delivered easily. (Conversely, there are some relatively high-BW epd bulls that have decent calving ease, due to the fact that their calves are long and slender, rather than thick and blocky)
The heifers also contribute to the equation; if they have the genetics for high birthweights, and/or small/narrow pelvic canals, even when bred to a low-BW epd sire, you may get excessively large calves - or heifers with small/narrow pelvic canals that don't lend them to easy delivery of anything but the tiniest, most slender of calves.

Good thing that you're finally getting a veterinarian involved - I don't know that I'd have waited 'til I had that many dead calves to call for some professional help.

 

[Suzie Q]

I have heard that dead calves can be from lepto.

 

[IL cow man]

Suzie, the calves are up to 120lbs. Lepto is not the problem as they are still growing. Dead calves don't grow. Lepto can cause fetus mortality, but it will occur before full gestation. I think this is definitely more a genetic problem of a female line that throws large calves bred to a sire that throws large calves.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Suzie, the calves are up to 120lbs. Lepto is not the problem as they are still growing. Dead calves don't grow. Lepto can cause fetus mortality, but it will occur before full gestation. I think this is definitely more a genetic problem of a female line that throws large calves bred to a sire that throws large calves.

:nod:

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

Suzie, the calves are up to 120lbs. Lepto is not the problem as they are still growing. Dead calves don't grow. Lepto can cause fetus mortality, but it will occur before full gestation. I think this is definitely more a genetic problem of a female line that throws large calves bred to a sire that throws large calves.

:nod:

Charlois (typically large birthweights)... Angus cross bull (obviously large birthweights)...

Questions:

1. Do you have EPD's on your females?
2. Do you have EPD's on your bull?

As said above, you need to evaluate the genetic capacity of your bull and your females regardless of their current physical size to determine a proper mating (or train wreck with really large calves).

 

[Suzie Q]

Thank you so much IL cow man, all I know is that the former owner told me to vaccinate against it as they had it on the property before, so we have always vaccinated against it. TOUCH WOOD I have never seen it.

 

[IL cow man]

Lepto is easily spread so should always be in the vaccination for breeding stock. Most every animal can get it and spread it by urine. mouse peas in feed, cow eats feed, cow peas on grass, etc.

 

[Suzie Q]

Thank you, I also didn't know it came from mice. I was told we were more susceptible because we flood.