Has anyone used this Bull

[vclavin]

Robert,
Why do you avoid Leachman Lass 1004? I understand your disdain of the others but what about her??

I was going to ask that same question only include Sleep Easy in the question please?
Also, the only problem I have heard about 1407 was he made "thin" cattle..true? or another reason for staying away from him.
Valerie

 

[jscunn]

I am not Robert, but I avoided Sleep Easy because of the lack of muscle. 1407 also had a reputation for daughters having less than desirable udders.. (Sleep Easy too if I remember correctly).

 

[vclavin]

I am not Robert, but I avoided Sleep Easy because of the lack of muscle. 1407 also had a reputation for daughters having less than desirable udders.. (Sleep Easy too if I remember correctly).

Any, in your opinion, good sons of these 2 sires?
Valerie

 

[jscunn]

Vclavin,
Sure there are some good sons out there. Anytime a bull gets used as much as those two did you can find good sons. As far as Sleep Easy, probably alittle harder to find a direct son I would use, I know he is either the Sire or MGS of Millcreek Diversity. Diversity was a tank of a bull (nothing at all like SE) Had some daughters of Diversity, big high volume cows. Owned a son of Diversity that was a very good bull.

As far as 1407...
I keep hearing good things about LCC New Standard. It is early and I cant access any catalogs right now, but that is the bull off the top of my head.

While I am on the subject, one of my least favorite sires of all time (1680) is the MGS of the bull we have used heaviest (AI). Hated (strong word) 1680, so it took me a couple of years to committ to the bull. Kept seeing good calf after good calf and finally purchased some semen and one yearling heifer. I was not dissappointed until I had to test all of the progeny for AM. If it werent for that I would still be using him. Creates the best daughters for my environment/program. (good udders, great feet, good temperament, deep ribbed, good muscled cattle)

 

[vclavin]

Vclavin,
Sure there are some good sons out there. Anytime a bull gets used as much as those two did you can find good sons. As far as Sleep Easy, probably alittle harder to find a direct son I would use, I know he is either the Sire or MGS of Millcreek Diversity. Diversity was a tank of a bull (nothing at all like SE) Had some daughters of Diversity, big high volume cows. Owned a son of Diversity that was a very good bull.

As far as 1407...
I keep hearing good things about LCC New Standard. It is early and I cant access any catalogs right now, but that is the bull off the top of my head.

While I am on the subject, one of my least favorite sires of all time (1680) is the MGS of the bull we have used heaviest (AI). Hated (strong word) 1680, so it took me a couple of years to committ to the bull. Kept seeing good calf after good calf and finally purchased some semen and one yearling heifer. I was not dissappointed until I had to test all of the progeny for AM. If it werent for that I would still be using him. Creates the best daughters for my environment/program. (good udders, great feet, good temperament, deep ribbed, good muscled cattle)

JSCUNN,
Thanks, I never could get myself to use 1680 - thank heavens! I have a few daughters out of LCC New Standard... due to calve early March/April 2011. So far, everyone picks them out and really likes them. We shall see how well they make mommas.
Valerie

 

[novatech]

I said I thought 1407 is a pos, also stated I wouldn't use certain lines, didn't make any comment about them one way or another, just that I chose to avoid them. I'll stand by that. To try and twist my words to make out that I am the person who bashes Angus is ridiculous, but if it makes you happy, carry on.

You can't sell something based purely on marketing and expect it to endure, sure you can fool some of the people some of the time, but are you really saying that the success of CAB is pure marketing for 30 years? CAB was based on a product that already existed, which without the brand had been driven by demand for a century before, it simply re-emphasized quality over quantity and took off from there.

Really, have a great day!

CAB, the name, was not designed to sell meat so much as it was to sell the breed as producing high quality meat. With less than 2% being pure Angus they are picking up an awful lot of meat from other breeds and giving all the credit to Angus in the consumer eye. I do not in any way bash the breed, just some of the people behind it.

 

[ga.prime]

nope, not frankie, though I can see why she doesn't bother to respond to all the anti-Angus crap that gets spouted off on this site.

It's futile to argue with irrational nonsense. Best to skip it, ignore it, or don't read it. Most of the time I do all three. And you're right AL, it hasn't had any effect on the market other than a positive one. Angus registrations and CAB sales through the roof.

 

[jscunn]

Novatech,
I would be interested in where you got the 2% number (pure angus meeting CAB). I would also like to know how much CAB is 50% Angus, 75% Angus, pure Black Limo/Simmental, Black Baldy, etc..

 

[novatech]

Novatech,
I would be interested in where you got the 2% number (pure angus meeting CAB). I would also like to know how much CAB is 50% Angus, 75% Angus, pure Black Limo/Simmental, Black Baldy, etc..

A year or so ago I Googled it up. I typed in % pure Angus meeting CAB requirements in Google. The figure was actually 1 1/2 %. If you want when I have time I will try and find it back. I seem to recall it was on a CAB website.
Unless you have something to the contrary.

 

[vclavin]

http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/grades.php

Not what you are looking for, but still interesting data.
Valerie

 

[Gelbvieh 5]

nope, not frankie, though I can see why she doesn't bother to respond to all the anti-Angus crap that gets spouted off on this site.

It's futile to argue with irrational nonsense. Best to skip it, ignore it, or don't read it. Most of the time I do all three. And you're right AL, it hasn't had any effect on the market other than a positive one. Angus registrations and CAB sales through the roof.

How is it irrational nonsense to say that CAB is, was, and always will be a marketing program. The definition of marketing is to promote a product or service and increase sales. The AAA did just that, they took a fairly loose set of criteria and made it sound like something new and exciting. Then they started promoting it. By the way Kudos to them for coming up with that idea.

Near as I can tell they didn't discover a hidden bloodline within the existing Angus cattle of the time and breed it pure to this day so that CAB comes only from one particular strain of Angus. they just took what they had and wrapped it up in a nice package and convinced America that they had reinvented the wheel.

All of which is just fine. Truth be told CAB is a Brand not a breed. The simple fact that there is no genetic testing to prove that it is all Angus makes CAB an oxymoron, since it can easily contain any number of combinations of "black" cattle in the genetic makeup of a given CAB steak.

So I ask you Ga Prime what part of that is irrational nonsense? Please explain it to me.

 

[jscunn]

Novatech,
I tried googling it and didnt find anything close to that kind of information, you mind googling it again and sending me the link?

 

[robert]

if anything is loose it is some folks grasp of history and historical context. CAB specs haven't changed in regard to the quality of the product, USDA grading standards were lowered to include what would previously have been the equivalent of select and called it 'low choice', CAB only allows beef that historically would have graded Choice anyway. So why were USDA standards lower? It was because the volume of beef meeting choice specs wasn't enough to meet demand, so as usual in government circles, they lowered the standard, why was supply tighter for Choice? D'you think it had anything to do with the increase in use of continental breeds that do not marble? So, what to do, allow continuing fall in demand as quality got lower or set a bar that say's 'only this will be good enough for our consumers'? Was it meant to drive demand for Angus bulls? Absolutely, but as we keep returning to the subject, who was already a black hided breed and who became black hided breeds and why? To continue to insinuate that CAB is dishonest because everybody else took a short cut to get some of the action is laughable. If a product gets popular based on pure marketing with no product to back it up it doesn't last long, so far CAB is 32+years and counting. :banana:

 

[ga.prime]

Good post, robert. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[3waycross]

SOOOOOOOOOOO how does this really work robert, you and Ga Prime stick your fingers in your ears and holler LALALALALALALALALA so that you can't hear anything you don't want to, and you don't have to answer any questions you don't like.

well, i guess if it works for ya , then you gotta go with it. ;-)

 

[robert]

sure don't see you answering any questions 3waycross, not about acknowleging where the other breeds got black from, not about what precipitated CAB, not about how that has helped grow demand for beef, nothing, nada. All you and several others want to do is dismiss CAB as 'marketing' as if it were some short lived fad. But hey, if it works for you, go for it!

 

[3waycross]

sure don't see you answering any questions 3waycross, not about acknowleging where the other breeds got black from, not about what precipitated CAB, not about how that has helped grow demand for beef, nothing, nada. All you and several others want to do is dismiss CAB as 'marketing' as if it were some short lived fad. But hey, if it works for you, go for it!

I concede ALL those points and NEVER said anything different. However you are missing the point about the "Marketing" statement. It is not dismissive it is simply a statement of fact.

Now, why not answer my questions and those posed by Gelbvieh 5. Neither of is is trying to be abusive or inflamatory. Why is it so hard to have a civil discourse about this subject. For the record outside of a couple of "funnel butt" remarks I have not knocked Angus cattle here, you are the one who said terrible things about one of the most heavily used bulls in the breed(1407) not me. I have simply said and I will say it again. CAB is, a brilliant marketing campaign, what it is why do you insist on making it something else.

 

[robert]

I didn't say terrible things about 1407, I said truthful things about him, things that the real marketing pimps would never acknowlege or admit until they'd made their money. History is littered with highly promoted 'latest, greatest' that were just wrecks for their breed over time.

What I have taken issue with is the repeated statement that CAB is just marketing, of course marketing is a major component and purpose, but there has to be product behind it. As for Gelbveih 5's comments, why should CAB just be one line of Angus? The Angus breed from it's inception was noted and promoted for it's quality beef, the inherent ability to marble made the breed. The average Angus today (according to MARC data) is still the marbling, low birth weight breed. Certainly the same data shows some alarming trends for mature size and growth, but overall the inherent qualities in general remain. Does anyone dispute that to improve carcass quality you add Angus genetics?

 

[3waycross]

I didn't say terrible things about 1407, I said truthful things about him, things that the real marketing pimps would never acknowlege or admit until they'd made their money. History is littered with highly promoted 'latest, greatest' that were just wrecks for their breed over time.

What I have taken issue with is the repeated statement that CAB is just marketing, of course marketing is a major component and purpose, but there has to be product behind it. As for Gelbveih 5's comments, why should CAB just be one line of Angus? The Angus breed from it's inception was noted and promoted for it's quality beef, the inherent ability to marble made the breed. The average Angus today (according to MARC data) is still the marbling, low birth weight breed. Certainly the same data shows some alarming trends for mature size and growth, but overall the inherent qualities in general remain. Does anyone dispute that to improve carcass quality you add Angus genetics?

i freakin give

 

[Caustic Burno]

You don't need Angus genetics to improve carcass quality, you need black hide to fool buyers.
There are several breeds as good or better than Angus out there, they haven't been marketed as well.
I bet you could put down a half dozen breed steaks on the table and 99.9% wouldn't know if it was from an Angus or a water buffalo. The average consumer wouldn't know an Angus if it jumped up and bit them in the ass.
This makerting ploy goes back to the old Barnum statement that there is a sucker born every minute.

What I have yet to figure out is why 9 out of 10 Angus breeders act like they had to sell their soul to the association.