Grass-fed Beef Cattle Genetics 101

[edrsimms]

IluvABbeef wrote:

So let me explain for you. Ca levels are determined by the level of phosphorus, magnesium and potassium levels. There is a "thing" called the Ca ratio. If there is too much P or Vit D, calcium deficiencies develop, since they prohibit the proper use of calcium in the animal's body. Similar thing with Mg and K. Ca is related to Lime because that's what Lime is; thus, yes the level of calcium in the soil is related to the lime index thing you spoke of.
You are in the weeds here --- back to forages--- if your pH is off the forage plant will not be able to utilize the nutrients P or K, period. Now let me explain to you about something that is fairly common in some beef cattle --Milk fever--- why does this happen if you are feeding your cattle plenty of mineral and your forage is high in calcium? Milk fever happens when the cow isnt getting the required calcium because there is a trigger mechanism brought on by high P and K which sends a signal to the system that calcium is plentiful-- even when the opposite is true --hence milk fever--- How do we maintain the proper Ca levels?????? >>>>>>>> proper pH

. But as for the direct correlation of Ca to sol. CHOs?

Upon doing some research, you do have a point (to your example), but this is especially related to the growth stages of the grasses within the species. The correlation differs between each species. But this is from what I seen with the relation between the levels of DE (digestible energy) in Mcal/lb of, for instance, KBG, and percentage of calcium.

So now, I will let the rest of the cattlemen and women on here discuss this post to it's unprecedented end.

 

[edrsimms]

I have read a bunch of the stuff edrsimms has posted over the last couple of months. With all the plowing and a planting and a moving of cows and hay cutting weaning bulls and heifers and a taking bulls to test and selling bulls everwhere in US along with finishing all this highpowered beef i just can't believe he has time to post on here.
I have been busy with all there is to do on a forage based operation. If I was dependent on the bucket I would have more time to come here and sit around with you non-traditional type ranchers and chew the fat and cry over the absence of rain. RBB, I can tell you are not a farmer, as we seldom plow anymore with the onset of BMP's and No-till protocols well since 1985. Although all the ranchers I know move cattle, cut hay at times (I imagine your idea of baling hay isn't a beaverslide (you can go look that up) - we rarely wean a bull as we follow BMP's on that also and castrate bull calves at 2-3 months, and yes we take the bulls we do keep intact to forage tests (usually our own), and yes heifers go on grass, and yes bulls with grassfed genetics do end up in all sorts of places, and yes we do have calves on finishing pastures on a yearly basis and yes I dont have much time for posting but I manage my time well

 

[edrsimms]

Dad gummit! I been gone waay too long. Mr. Ed, please try to remember that whenever you point a finger at someone you have 3 pointing back at you. There are good people here and I take offense at how you insult their intelligence regardless of how well intended your intentions.

Pete

Well Pete, thats just fine--- I am just posting information and not pointing fingers -- but if you are a grainer you are a grainer-- period, but yes, sometimes the grainfed enthusiast does get a little off their feed (pun intended) and in their attempt to live up to their guru status >> (spending a lil too much time online and not enough time at work)

 

[edrsimms]

And I think that Elvis / Simms / BigHat has left the building............ :mrgreen:

No still here Granny, get your glasses on-- it is time for the forage chain for grass finishing beef.

I do not have as much time as you all do which is evident by your time spent here. I thoroughly enjoy my work and enjoy being a provider of a quality product. One day, you will too, if you ever have the opportunity to provide the general public with a quality product.

 

[edrsimms]

And I think that Elvis / Simms / BigHat has left the building............ :mrgreen:

Ed's probably hauling hay to somebody somewhere for free. That's what he does.

So should you be if you have plenty and others have none---

 

[edrsimms]

Grannysoo wrote:
Once again, the concept of grass fed beef is great, however it would price beef out of the competitive world of food. Looking at some of the prices that are being charged for grass fed beef, you see $8.00 per pound hamburger, $25.00 per pound steak, and the like. If these prices were to become the "norm", then American beef production would come to a standstill, serving only the uber rich that could afford it. Americans are accustomed to buying $1.50 hamburger meat, and $4.00 steaks.

You still miss the point Granny. as a grassfed producer I dont need the world -- you keep trying to bring me into your world of grainfed-- that is not me-- our operations are like night and day. Most grainers are cowcalf maybe stocker then they are gone. Yall dont worry about quality because it doesnt directly affect you. Grassfed producers take their product from birth to plate.

And, amazingly enough, your last couple of posts have been more polite and civil.
And your last few posts have been civil? -- this is a 2 way street-- Im sorry if you find my posts impolite or uncivil but like I said this post is for those interested in grassfed and this may not be you.
Don't matter how good your cows are or what you feed them if people don't want to be around you. They just won't listen....This is irrelevant and you may just be a lil off your feed here (pun intended)
well Granny I said in the beginning that this post would be for those interested in grassfed beef and not a p-ing contest--- you may want to sit this one out, have a nice day
Ed

 

[dun]

perhaps the reason you cast off grass fed beef is you don't have the capacity to fully understand forage utilization and management.

Perhaps you don;t understand that climate and topography is not the same everywhere and "grass finished" won;t work in some areas.

 

[edrsimms]

Thats why I said earlier perhaps your land wont support a cow/calf operation and that is something you need to decide. Maybe you need to be a stocker operation or something else. As far as climate and topography goes that doesn't mean much coming from MO-- there are MUCH harsher conditions than that in 80% of the US- so basically that dog won't hunt. The bottom line is that if you dont have good soil composition which will produce good forage -- you will lose in this business and it may be time for a change in occupation as you may be asking a little too much from your land base.

Ed

perhaps the reason you cast off grass fed beef is you don't have the capacity to fully understand forage utilization and management.

Perhaps you don;t understand that climate and topography is not the same everywhere and "grass finished" won;t work in some areas.

 

[dun]

Thats why I said earlier perhaps your land wont support a cow/calf operation and that is something you need to decide. Maybe you need to be a stocker operation or something else. As far as climate and topography goes that doesn't mean much coming from MO-- there are MUCH harsher conditions than that in 80% of the US- so basically that dog won't hunt. The bottom line is that if you dont have good soil composition which will produce good forage -- you will lose in this business and it may be time for a change in occupation as you may be asking a little too much from your land base.

Ed

perhaps the reason you cast off grass fed beef is you don't have the capacity to fully understand forage utilization and management.

Perhaps you don;t understand that climate and topography is not the same everywhere and "grass finished" won;t work in some areas.

The only thing this soil is suitable for IS cow/calf. When it's tipped on it's side like most of it is around here you can;t plant it to the types of forage needed for stockers. YOu're right, there are harsher climates then MO, and trying to grow the quality forage required for anything other then cow/calf won't work there either.
Being realistic you have to know what the particular forage base will support based on all the factors involved and raise that type of animal.

 

[talldog]

Thats why I said earlier perhaps your land wont support a cow/calf operation and that is something you need to decide. Maybe you need to be a stocker operation or something else. As far as climate and topography goes that doesn't mean much coming from MO-- there are MUCH harsher conditions than that in 80% of the US- so basically that dog won't hunt. The bottom line is that if you dont have good soil composition which will produce good forage -- you will lose in this business and it may be time for a change in occupation as you may be asking a little too much from your land base.

Ed

perhaps the reason you cast off grass fed beef is you don't have the capacity to fully understand forage utilization and management.

Perhaps you don;t understand that climate and topography is not the same everywhere and "grass finished" won;t work in some areas.

Basic 101--- if you have a grass-fed breed !! :tiphat:

 

[edrsimms]

Dun wrote: The only thing this soil is suitable for IS cow/calf. When it's tipped on it's side like most of it is around here you can;t plant it to the types of forage needed for stockers. YOu're right, there are harsher climates then MO, and trying to grow the quality forage required for anything other then cow/calf won't work there either.
Being realistic you have to know what the particular forage base will support based on all the factors involved and raise that type of animal.

Yes, true, but trying to get grain-fed genetics to prosper on an all forage environment is a loser-- grain-fed genetics producers are proof of it, but we already knew that grain-fed genetics can't survive on grass. And it is not just you and I don't want to single you out, but when I say "you" I mean all grain-fed genetic cattle raisers. My example is you cannot run a large framed cow on what little grass you can grow in the MO ozarks cuz you will continue to lose. Based on your forage base you may be better off with stockers though because a cow/calf operation requires to much for your forage base.

You have to first get your genetics right for grass-fed production. You have to choose the right cross for your particular situation. You have to have the right soil to produce quality pastures and when you cannot then you should be looking into another line of work

 

[dun]

Dun wrote: The only thing this soil is suitable for IS cow/calf. When it's tipped on it's side like most of it is around here you can;t plant it to the types of forage needed for stockers. YOu're right, there are harsher climates then MO, and trying to grow the quality forage required for anything other then cow/calf won't work there either.
Being realistic you have to know what the particular forage base will support based on all the factors involved and raise that type of animal.

Yes, true, but trying to get grain-fed genetics to prosper on an all forage environment is a loser-- grain-fed genetics producers are proof of it, but we already knew that grain-fed genetics can't survive on grass. And it is not just you and I don't want to single you out, but when I say "you" I mean all grain-fed genetic cattle raisers. My example is you cannot run a large framed cow on what little grass you can grow in the MO ozarks cuz you will continue to lose. Based on your forage base you may be better off with stockers though because a cow/calf operation requires to much for your forage base.

You have to first get your genetics right for grass-fed production. You have to choose the right cross for your particular situation. You have to have the right soil to produce quality pastures and when you cannot then you should be looking into another line of work

I don;t know about grass fed genetics but our cows don;t get supplemented, wean heavy calves, breed back on time and get fat as pigs when the calves are weaned. They do all of that on KY31 with OG and clover diluting it. We don;t start feeding hay normally until mid march and end by mid april. Things sure seem to work well for us. Get a premium (usually) for the weaned preconditioned calves. Don;t have the concerns post oweaning of illness/death or whatever.

 

[IluvABbeef]

IluvABbeef wrote:
And the other high nutritional requirement is when she's in her 3rd trimester. Remember? No this is incorrect.

Explanation please.
3rd Trimester --which is month 6 to 9 through post-weaning is their lowest requirement all year

As I learned it, yes the lactation period is THE highest area where nutrition is needed(peak milk production between month 2-3 post-calving), but, the last trimester of gestation is also a developing point because of the point where the calf is needing more energy and protein to grow. (not really)

What??? Why is it you always say I'm incorrect but fail to explain yourself?? Look at a friggin gestation/lactation chart for heaven's sake: there is a point AT the 3rd gestation period were nutrient requirements start to climb, thus the DEVELOPING POINT where the calf IS needing more nutrition (aka energy, protein, etc.) to grow.

But of courses there's a fine line between too much nutrition and too little. But, my point is the last trimester is an additional, increased requirement; after that, then she reaches peak nutrition requirement.

The first two trimesters are the lowest nutrient requirements (incorrect, because peak milk falls in this time increment); but, according to a chart I'm looking at in Beef Cattle Science, the CRITICAL period is from 30 days before and 70 days after calving.

I am talking about the FIRST TWO TRIMESTERS, NOT peak milk. Again, have a look at a gestation/lactation graph; or shall I post if for you for all to see? Peak milk falls because the calf is being weaned or does not need milk at that time, thus nutrition for the COW is not as high as it is that I had pointed out previously. You are not only saying that I am CORRECT, but you are also pointing out the obvious that is RELATED to WHY I said the cow does not need as much nutrition as in other periods of gestation/lactation.

 

[IluvABbeef]

IluvABbeef wrote:

So let me explain for you. Ca levels are determined by the level of phosphorus, magnesium and potassium levels. There is a "thing" called the Ca ratio. If there is too much P or Vit D, calcium deficiencies develop, since they prohibit the proper use of calcium in the animal's body. Similar thing with Mg and K. Ca is related to Lime because that's what Lime is; thus, yes the level of calcium in the soil is related to the lime index thing you spoke of.
You are in the weeds here --- back to forages--- if your pH is off the forage plant will not be able to utilize the nutrients P or K, period. Now let me explain to you about something that is fairly common in some beef cattle --Milk fever--- why does this happen if you are feeding your cattle plenty of mineral and your forage is high in calcium? Milk fever happens when the cow isnt getting the required calcium because there is a trigger mechanism brought on by high P and K which sends a signal to the system that calcium is plentiful-- even when the opposite is true --hence milk fever--- How do we maintain the proper Ca levels?????? >>>>>>>> proper pH

. But as for the direct correlation of Ca to sol. CHOs?

Upon doing some research, you do have a point (to your example), but this is especially related to the growth stages of the grasses within the species. The correlation differs between each species. But this is from what I seen with the relation between the levels of DE (digestible energy) in Mcal/lb of, for instance, KBG, and percentage of calcium.

So now, I will let the rest of the cattlemen and women on here discuss this post to it's unprecedented end.

LOL here we go again. Milk fever, unlike your answer, happens when the cow has relied too heavily on the calcium from her diet and when she is in need of calcium during birth, cannot sequester it from her bones. It's because she has been fed too much calcium the last three weeks of trimester that she goes down like that. Why do dairy farmers have the diet reduced in calcium the last trimester? To guard against milk fever AND so that the cow is able to generate calcium from her bones and other sources in her body. BTW, FYI, milk fever is more common in DAIRY cows, NOT beef cattle. It's the high calcium in the feeds that the dairy cows have more problems with milk fever than beef cows that they are more apt to milk fever than beef cows. Do some proper research, man.

So I am not in the weeds here, I think you are. PH levels are pretty much what I was talking about, if you read between the lines. You just refraised what I just mentioned, not corrected me.

 

[edrsimms]

The first two trimesters includes peak milk. I dont need a gestation table or graph it is a fact and peak milk falls in the period you are discussing and that is the highest nutritional requirement all year for a broodcow, LOL. No peak milk doesn't fall because a calf is being weaned-- you are incorrect; rather Peak milk is a time period between month 2 and 3 post-calving and past that point in time--- milk production decreases up until weaning, thus nutrition requirements also decrease-- then she dries off at weaning and is at its lowest all year. Nutritional requirements do begin to increase although very little up to her next calving date. This is how it is-- graph or no graph.

am talking about the FIRST TWO TRIMESTERS, NOT peak milk. Again, have a look at a gestation/lactation graph; or shall I post if for you for all to see? Peak milk falls because the calf is being weaned or does not need milk at that time, thus nutrition for the COW is not as high as it is that I had pointed out previously. You are not only saying that I am CORRECT, but you are also pointing out the obvious that is RELATED to WHY I said the cow does not need as much nutrition as in other periods of gestation/lactation.

 

[john250]

Pictures of these phase optimized pastures and the genetic wonders which graze them would be a lot more convincing than more rhetoric. If you can't post pics of the grass and cattle, could you at least post a pic of your hat and buckle?

 

[edrsimms]

LOL here we go again. Milk fever, unlike your answer, happens when the cow has relied too heavily on the calcium from her diet and when she is in need of calcium during birth, cannot sequester it from her bones. No- again you are incorrect in your thinking because you are not following this discussion into the cellular level - Very basically you are right, but a beef cow eats what is before her and she doesnt really know whether she has relied too heavily on Ca from her diet or not, LOL. You are again in the weeds, I think you may need to research your facts alittle further on the Milk Fever topic or just go re-read my last post, evidently you didn't read it thoroughly.

It's because she has been fed too much calcium the last three weeks of trimester that she goes down like that. This is a pastured grassfed animal we are talking about here Einstein and not your garden variety dairy cow in a feedlot based environment, you are trying to compare apples and oranges again, please keep on topic.
Why do dairy farmers have the diet reduced in calcium the last trimester? To guard against milk fever AND so that the cow is able to generate calcium from her bones and other sources in her body. BTW, FYI, milk fever is more common in DAIRY cows, NOT beef cattle.It is actually pretty common in some breeds of beef cattle as well, that was an idiotic statement, please try to stay on topic It's the high calcium in the feeds that the dairy cows have more problems with milk fever than beef cows that they are more apt to milk fever than beef cows. Do some proper research, man.more redundant and irrelevant discussion, please stay on topic

So I am not in the weeds here, I think you are. PH levels are pretty much what I was talking about, if you read between the lines. You just refraised what I just mentioned, not corrected me.

Look here Einstein, if your pH levels are off-- the plants you have in your pastures will not grow optimally no matter how much fertilizer you dump on it . Everything begins with the soil and if your soil is right it will produce great forage which will provide the needed nutrition and health that your cattle need. This is a sequence of events where you cannot omit one and have any of the others work ---Ex: if you omit proper pH of your soils--- you will NOT have great forage quality-- you will not have optimal nutrition ---and you will NOT have cattle performing at their best-------period another example: if you have correct soil pH but have nothing in your pasture that is very good then the other parts of this puzzle will NOT work optimally either. These are the facts.
Lets not get off topic and start duscussion on grainers and dairy cows stick to the subject at hand, but I realize your understanding of grassfed genetics, proper soil and forage utilization and management are somewhat limited.. while you are studying up on forage utilization and management you can revisit Milk fever in a forage based environment
(pssst -- ya know that traditional operation where there is NO Bucket)

 

[edrsimms]

Barleyfedbeef wrote:
LOL here we go again. Milk fever, unlike your answer, happens when the cow has relied too heavily on the calcium from her diet and when she is in need of calcium during birth, cannot sequester it from her bones. It's because she has been fed too much calcium the last three weeks of trimester that she goes down like that. This is all incorrect
Let me explain this to you in very simple terms: N.P.K pH
(N) Nitrogen --causes quick green up and basically does nothing for YEILD and causes the Protein/carbohydrate imbalance which is ok for stockers but not in a grass-finishing program.
(P) Phosphorous-- represents root growth and development, but not YEILD
(K) Potassium -- represents------- YEILD
pH -- when not correct causes the inability of the plant to take up needed nutrients for optimal growth.
Now, with this understanding, I will attempt to explain to you about Milk Fever in beef cattle in a forage based environment:
1. In a forage based environment, we often see instances of too much K in the forage base. Too much K can cause (on a cellular level) a trigger mechanism in the body to shut down and bypass Ca. Thus too much K in our forage base (which represented Yeild) has caused any excess calcium offered to be bypassed even when the cow actually needs it. In such cases we get Milk fever prior to calving. This was an example (evidently over your head) of the need for proper pH.
Ed

 

[edrsimms]

Pictures of these phase optimized pastures and the genetic wonders which graze them would be a lot more convincing than more rhetoric. If you can't post pics of the grass and cattle, could you at least post a pic of your hat and buckle?

John-- more antagonistic behavior out of you won't work. Probably works on the rest of your small minded friends-- dont you have some Ostriches or you and txbred's Limmichs to feed?
Ed

 

[john250]

Pictures of these phase optimized pastures and the genetic wonders which graze them would be a lot more convincing than more rhetoric. If you can't post pics of the grass and cattle, could you at least post a pic of your hat and buckle?

John-- more antagonistic behavior out of you won't work. Probably works on the rest of your small minded friends-- dont you have some Ostriches or you and txbred's Limmichs to feed?
Ed

OK. Pretty please would you post a pic of your hat?