Grass-fed Beef Cattle Genetics 101

[novatech]

So the economics of good pasture management is a good thing I think we could all agree on. The fact that a small frame score cow weaning 60% is economical. That is simply good breeding for a cow calf operation. You have only addressed what many cattle operations strive for. This economic break down fits only the cow calf operation. Almost all cow calf operations grass feed up to this point. Nobody wants to spent extra money on supplements.
You are making a major issue about grass fed genetics. Those same genetics at the point you stopped could either go to a feed lot or be grass fed in a lush pasture. At this point it is a matter of the terminal calves developing the proper microbes in the rumen to handle what ever they are being fed.
Now if you plan on grass feeding them you had better not follow that crap about the

Low in visceral organ weight

because they will not have enough rumen to digest it properly.
A calf that is 60% of the cows weight at weaning is a big plus in the cow calf operation. It is breeding for early maturing calves. The real economics is in what happens next. Does that fast maturing calf slow down on gain per day on the finishing end?
Does the slower maturing calf speed up its gain on the finishing end ? It is the end result at finishing that should be determined. What are the total costs from birth to rail? The point where you stopped is actually where you should have started.
Another thing I would like to bring up. If you have a 1200 lb. cow that produces a 600 lb. calf, this cow being a low to moderate producer of milk, It seems to me that the fast maturing calf would also have to eat grass, more grass than the slower maturing calf. So in reality one should breed for efficiency in grass conversion. But unfortunately testing for this can only be done in a feed lot.
Here is a terminal break down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4xQ5P7l ... re=related

 

[grannysoo]

I'll tell you. At times, I really miss 'ole 4CTophand or big hat, or whatever he was, cause he sure was the most knowledgable fellow I ever saw when it came to cows and farming. He could solve all of these problems and give us the right answers. Sigh.....

As one of the signatures on the board states:

Grass in front - Bull behind.

It's pretty simple. That's the concept that we all would desire, however in the real world, grain does have a place, regardless of it you like it or not.

You can't produce enough grass fed beef in America to supply the demand.

 

[talldog]

I'll tell you. At times, I really miss 'ole 4CTophand or big hat, or whatever he was, cause he sure was the most knowledgable fellow I ever saw when it came to cows and farming. He could solve all of these problems and give us the right answers. Sigh.....

As one of the signatures on the board states:

Grass in front - Bull behind.

It's pretty simple. That's the concept that we all would desire, however in the real world, grain does have a place, regardless of it you like it or not.

You can't produce enough grass fed beef in America to supply the demand.

I don't care, personally, what people feed their cattle, that's their buisness!! All I care about is MY SHOOTING MATCH !! I've enhanced my pasture management greatly in part to Ed and have greatly appreciated it ALL----If you don't agree---Thank GOD it's AMERICA and don't listen---keep on KEEPING on---It's fine with me !!! :tiphat:

 

[TexasBred]

I'll tell you. At times, I really miss 'ole 4CTophand or big hat, or whatever he was, cause he sure was the most knowledgable fellow I ever saw when it came to cows and farming. He could solve all of these problems and give us the right answers. Sigh.....

As one of the signatures on the board states:

Grass in front - Bull behind.

It's pretty simple. That's the concept that we all would desire, however in the real world, grain does have a place, regardless of it you like it or not.

You can't produce enough grass fed beef in America to supply the demand.

Mercy granny....I forgot about the 4C....I think I remember him trying to pass himself off as an Aggie Alum as well.....said I'd have to polish his Sr. boots.....he never answered me then either. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[grannysoo]

I don't care, personally, what people feed their cattle, that's their buisness!! All I care about is MY SHOOTING MATCH !! I've enhanced my pasture management greatly in part to Ed and have greatly appreciated it ALL----If you don't agree---Thank GOD it's AMERICA and don't listen---keep on KEEPING on---It's fine with me !!! :tiphat:

I think you missed my point. Grass in front!

I totally agree that the ideal situation is to grass feed cattle. Pasture improvement and enhancement some of the best things that you will ever do. After all, I'm a grass farmer first, and cattle farmer second. However, real world dictates that you do what it takes for your cattle and your bank account to survive.

Ask some of those boys & girls in Texas how grass fed is working out right now.........

 

[KMacGinley]

Thousand lb cows sometimes wean 600 lb calves, but more often they wean 500 lb calves. Many of the so called grassfed genetics result in too small framed calves that end up docked as feeders. And it takes 2 years or more to properly feed them out on grass. But it all sure sounds good, doesn't it?

The problem with the stockman Grassfarmer religion is that, that is what it is, a religion. Much of what I read there is purely fantasy, or with little or no proof and must be taken on faith. And the people putting the stuff out, are putting on seminars at $500 per head and one must wonder how much of their income comes from grassfed production and how much comes from "educating" the "something from nothing" crowd that never seems to learn. Reminds me of Televangelists.

but people desparate for easy money grasp at the straws: Rex Rabbits, emus, ostriches, llamas, alpacas, are all examples from the past, the difference with this grassfed beef thing is that there actually is demand for Grassfed beef, if done properly.

I have decided to take a middle stance. To shoot for average. Mike Keeney of Keeney Angus of Kentucky talks about this all of the time with his Shoshone type angus, and he has convinced me. From the middle you can go either direction.

 

[dyates]

Thousand lb cows sometimes wean 600 lb calves, but more often they wean 500 lb calves. Many of the so called grassfed genetics result in too small framed calves that end up docked as feeders. And it takes 2 years or more to properly feed them out on grass. But it all sure sounds good, doesn't it?

The problem with the stockman Grassfarmer religion is that, that is what it is, a religion. Much of what I read there is purely fantasy, or with little or no proof and must be taken on faith. And the people putting the stuff out, are putting on seminars at $500 per head and one must wonder how much of their income comes from grassfed production and how much comes from "educating" the "something from nothing" crowd that never seems to learn. Reminds me of Televangelists.

but people desparate for easy money grasp at the straws: Rex Rabbits, emus, ostriches, llamas, alpacas, are all examples from the past, the difference with this grassfed beef thing is that there actually is demand for Grassfed beef, if done properly.

I have decided to take a middle stance. To shoot for average. Mike Keeney of Keeney Angus of Kentucky talks about this all of the time with his Shoshone type angus, and he has convinced me. From the middle you can go either direction.

:nod: Mighty fine lookin' cattle down there. Never bought any from him yet, but I treed many a 'coon around his place back in high school. To get back on topic, I still don't get the part about low visceral organ weight. Goes against all common horse sense. How can an animal efficiently convert forages that are less nutrient dense if they don't have the capacity to do so?

 

[brandonm_13]

The only thing I can think of is if the means smaller cow= lower visceral organ weight, but even in a small cow, I want a higher percentage of guts. The more gut area, the more they can do on marginal ground. of course you might do well with smaller gutted animals on high quality ground, just the same as if you fed a lot of grain, but I'm still trying to figure it all out in my head. I may have the meaning of that statement all wrong. :???:

BTW, didn't 4cTophand say he was going to England for some trip? Sounds like he never came back.

 

[grannysoo]

BTW, didn't 4cTophand say he was going to England for some trip? Sounds like he never came back.

Actually, I think he's back and closer than you think.......

 

[TexasBred]

BTW, didn't 4cTophand say he was going to England for some trip? Sounds like he never came back.

Actually, I think he's back and closer than you think.......

4-C and Ed give a whole new meaning to "Born Again". :lol2:

 

[IluvABbeef]

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Cow/calf
The mature beef cow can utilize relatively low quality forage for most of the year as long as her calving is timed so she can put on body fat reserves before calving. Back fat becomes butter fat in the calf's milk and bypasses the rumen where it provides a slow release protein and energy source. The idea that a mature cow needs any supplementation other than forage is ludicrous. A cow's highest nutritional requirement all year is during peak milk production 2-3 months post-calving. If your forage base (availability of high quality forages) coincides with this time of high nutrition then there is no issue. Summer and winter annuals as well as perennial legumes assure success. The right genetics, the right forage base and the ability to manage forage utilization are key.

And the other high nutritional requirement is when she's in her 3rd trimester. Remember? No this is incorrect

Explanation please. As I learned it, yes the lactation period is THE highest area where nutrition is needed, but, the last trimester of gestation is also a developing point because of the point where the calf is needing more energy and protein to grow. But of courses there's a fine line between too much nutrition and too little. That has been an example with the snow storms last winter, and folks were putting in more feed to last the cows through the winter, as a result getting bigger calves than expected and more calving problems. But, my point is the last trimester is an additional, increased requirement; after that, then she reaches peak nutrition requirement. The first two trimesters are the lowest nutrient requirements; but, according to a chart I'm looking at in Beef Cattle Science, the CRITICAL period is from 30 days before and 70 days after calving.

In the Bermuda grass / bahia belt grasses peak in their annual forage growth by the longest day of the year ---June 21 although during a wet Spring this can be extended to July 4th. These same forages while green in March and April are low in DM and growing slowly and can starve an early lactating cow to death. This is where forage utilization and /or manipulation plays a key role in the success for producers calving in the late winter (Feb). The forage chain must be established to compensate for this lack of nutrition.

I plan to talk about the forage chain in detail later.

I've yet to hear you post about the forage cycle where C3 grasses dominate, if you can include that it would be appreciated. I plan to talk about the forage chain next as it should be it's own topic

Thank you.

Plant Physiology
During the highest nutritional requirement all year a cows forage base must be high in dchers to know some about that sunject loligestibility and high in soluble carbohydrates. This requires an understanding of forages and these distinctions are classified by plant species, stage of growth and level of soil mineralization. Ex: Soil Ca is directly correlated to the soluble carbohydrate level in your grass.

True, except for your example. From what I remember learning at school, calcium is correlated to the level of P, because of the famed Ca ratio. Carbohydrate levels are more with carbon sequestration, sinks and sources as well as the cycle of carbon.No, soil Ca relates to Lime Index in this example

You've really got me confused because first you say that Ca is directly correlated to sol. CHO's in the grass, then I say that Ca is more closely related to the level of P (phosphorus) because of the fabled Ca ratio, and yet you jump in with this stupid soil calcium relates to Lime index thing. That's not even what I'm talking about, nor was that even a statement to dispute your example; heII not even close!

So let me explain for you. Ca levels are determined by the level of phosphorus, magnesium and potassium levels. There is a "thing" called the Ca ratio. If there is too much P or Vit D, calcium deficiencies develop, since they prohibit the proper use of calcium in the animal's body. Similar thing with Mg and K. Ca is related to Lime because that's what Lime is; thus, yes the level of calcium in the soil is related to the lime index thing you spoke of. But as for the direct correlation of Ca to sol. CHOs?

Upon doing some research, you do have a point (to your example), but this is especially related to the growth stages of the grasses within the species. The correlation differs between each species. But this is from what I seen with the relation between the levels of DE (digestible energy) in Mcal/lb of, for instance, KBG, and percentage of calcium.

So now, I will let the rest of the cattlemen and women on here discuss this post to it's unprecedented end.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I have read a bunch of the stuff edrsimms has posted over the last couple of months. With all the plowing and a planting and a moving of cows and hay cutting weaning bulls and heifers and a taking bulls to test and selling bulls everwhere in US along with finishing all this highpowered beef i just can't believe he has time to post on here.

Grannysoo you will be riding the short bus agin. :lol:

 

[Hoosier Pete]

Dad gummit! I been gone waay too long. I thought I was visiting the cattle forum but instead I been reading The Stockman Grass Farmer, Grass Fed To Finish, Quality Pasture; How to create it and profit from it and a plethora of quotes from grant money funded research papers and pep rallies from marketing experts stead of cattle people. I enjoy all sorts of reading material about agriculture both conventional and non-conventional but by jingles It sure puts me off when a dog gets hold of a bone and just won't let go of it. Mr. Ed, please try to remember that whenever you point a finger at someone you have 3 pointing back at you. There are good people here and I take offense at how you insult their intelligence regardless of how well intended your intentions.

Pete

 

[grannysoo]

Grannysoo you will be riding the short bus agin. :lol:

I'm already on it. 3rd row back on the left side behind the driver. That's me waving out the window at you! :mrgreen:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

The short bus crowd always fit me pretty good. Think i will just keep riding it.

 

[TexasBred]

The short bus crowd always fit me pretty good. Think i will just keep riding it.

Ride along....but keep the "grain fed" limi beef coming. Just a touch of "fat" is juuuuuusssstttt right. ;-)

 

[grannysoo]

I have read a bunch of the stuff edrsimms has posted over the last couple of months. With all the plowing and a planting and a moving of cows and hay cutting weaning bulls and heifers and a taking bulls to test and selling bulls everwhere in US along with finishing all this highpowered beef i just can't believe he has time to post on here.

Don't forget the 20 or so containers of alfalfa getting shipped to South America ever two months......

 

[TexasBred]

I have read a bunch of the stuff edrsimms has posted over the last couple of months. With all the plowing and a planting and a moving of cows and hay cutting weaning bulls and heifers and a taking bulls to test and selling bulls everwhere in US along with finishing all this highpowered beef i just can't believe he has time to post on here.

Don't forget the 20 or so containers of alfalfa getting shipped to South America ever two months......

He had another 900 rolls coming this way til I pi$$ed him off....bet he keeps it now. :lol2:

 

[hillsdown]

I am interested on how many beef operations even feed grain to their cow/calf herds as it would not be profitable at all.
You don't even see the cow calf guy feeding silage anymore, hay is more economical .

My cattle get grass and hay and like Dun does ,they get bribed with grain so they can be locked up to AI.
I have back grounded my calves after weening as they were being sold to grain finished operations. So that is a given ,it allowed then to see before hand how the calves would do on grain and I was payed optimal for them.

With the drought though all bets are off. I have ordered my 14% range pellets and will probably put out cake and lot's of protein tubs this winter. There is no grass to feed them , it will be cheaper to cull hard and supplement them rather than ship hay in at $200.00 a ton. If we were still dairing yes but with beef it will never pay off.

Karin as far as higher nutrition in the last trimester I think it is a double edged sword. But as you stated about feeding during very severe weather like -40 temps the cattle will consume more, so it is just more beneficial for them to be provided with better quality feed during these conditions.

We have lost a couple of really good dairy cows due to fatty liver, from them receiving to high of protein and energy TMR though.

 

[TexasBred]

HD I keep a couple of creep feeders full of good high energy 12%/5% fat fee all the time but they are for small calves only....400 pounders can't even get inside it. Otherwise I never feed during grass season except to pen cattle. Winter time I'll supplement hay with some 40% cubes but only if I feel the cattle are loosing body condition. I did use a couple of feeders of Mix 30 this past year for the first time.