Grass-fed Beef Cattle Genetics 101

[dun]

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Where does all this hoopla address grain finishing vs grass finishing?

 

[edrsimms]

I'm just glad that someone has finally come up with a on size fits all method of raising cattle

Dun,
Keep reading when I get to the economics -- you will then understand---completely
Ed

I can hardly wait

So you are getting schooled, Dun--- it sure wont hurt ya
If these posts aren't helping anyone, at all, please let me know -- as there is no reason to waste my time if you are all determined to be bucket dependent your whole life.
Ed

 

[edrsimms]

Novatech ---did you go to this website: http://sustainableranching.com/grassland.html
A perfect example of a cattleman that is doing a great job with an average of 809 lbs at 205 days-- all on Grass.
All breeding bulls are Ultra-sound for REA shape and tenderness scores, bf etc....
call him, talk to others, educate yourself man
Don't expect others to teach you what you need to know--- go learn it.
Ed

 

[HerefordSire]

I am trying to learn. I think it is very positive you are sacrificing on our behalf. Most do not realize how demanding it is to place a little information out of reach so we will jump up to get it for ourselves. I could go on...but I believe you are finding out how the real life message board system is. Political posts are deleted and locked all the time, but inter-politics are encouraged.

 

[edrsimms]

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Where does all this hoopla address grain finishing vs grass finishing?

This is for people who would like more information about Grass-fed genetics and how the operation should work all the variables considered. I realize it is more hoopla than grain-fed operations as it requires a little more in depth knowledge of many things combined. The best part though, Dun, is the economics- which as I said I will cover much later as that will be the end part. You can surely be back by then from feeding buckets of feed to your grain-fed gentically programmed herd. At least I hope so.
I have, however, been acused of posting too many words per page, so I have been trying to limit the words per page for people like John250 and others, but remember that in my attempt to post fewer words (for some of you) that less information will be given and I will concentrate my efforts on the high spots. This post isnt about grass-fed vs. grain-fed it is just imformation about grass fed operations and how they work for those who are interested. and Dun, you may just want to sit this one out indefinitely.
Go get your bucket, where is that bucket? (j/k)
LOL :lol2:
Ed

 

[TexasBred]

Land area (acre-days) needed to produce 1 pound of beef during the finishing phase
Organic grass-fed Grain-fed without growth-enhancing tech Grain-fed with growth-enhancing echnologies

5.04 1.99 1.64



Conventional feedyard-production technologies make the most efficient use of total farmland resources. This is particularly important as we consider:

The world population is estimated to reach 9 billion by the middle of the 21st century
The global demand for food will double by 2050 and there will continue to be increased per-capita demand for beef and other high-quality animal protein
Worldwide, we have a limited land area on which to produce food, feed and fiber
It is critical that we continue to conserve natural and biodiverse natural habitats

Conventional beef-production technologies reduce greenhouse gas emissions

Conventional grain-based beef-production systems reduce greenhouse-gas (GHG) emissions by 40 percent compared to grass-only finishing programs2. Growth-promoting technologies account for 25 percent of this reduction. Overall, beef production contributes only 2 percent of the GHG emissions in the U.S. compared to 80 percent from fossil-fuel combustion.


Additional resources

More Beef, Lower Cost — The Impact of Pharmaceutical Technology in Modern Beef Production Brochure
Author — John Lawrence, PhD, Iowa State University

Economic Analysis of Pharmaceutical Technologies in Modern Beef Production
in a Bioeconomy Era White Paper
Author — John Lawrence, PhD, Iowa State University

Growth-enhancing Pharmaceuticals — Safe for Consumers, Safe and Beneficial for the Environment Brochure
Author — Alex Avery, Center for Global Food Issues

The Environmental Safety and Benefits of Pharmaceutical Technologies in Beef Production White Paper
Author — Alex Avery, Center for Global Food Issues

Modern Beef Production Technology — Proven Safe, Economical and Environmentally Friendly for More Than Three Generations Brochure
Authors — Tom Elam, PhD, and Rod Preston, PhD

Fifty Years of Pharmaceutical Technology and its Impact on the Beef We Provide to Consumers White Paper
Authors — Tom Elam, PhD, and Rod Preston, PhD

 

[john250]

So you are getting schooled, Dun--- it sure wont hurt ya

When Dun posts, I generally understand what he means. Ed's posts, not so much.
"When highly fertile cows are bred to highly fertile bulls – heritability is indeed significant... "--Ed
Kind of states the obvious, doesn't it?

If these posts aren't helping anyone, at all, please let me know -- as there is no reason to waste my time if you are all determined to be bucket dependent your whole life.
Ed

You've been getting responses from folks with hundreds of years of combined experience in the cattle business. They may know a little something about grass, cows and bulls, and finishing. I'm getting something from this discussion, but it is coming from the good folks who are responding to Ed.

 

[IluvABbeef]

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Cow/calf
The mature beef cow can utilize relatively low quality forage for most of the year as long as her calving is timed so she can put on body fat reserves before calving. Back fat becomes butter fat in the calf's milk and bypasses the rumen where it provides a slow release protein and energy source. The idea that a mature cow needs any supplementation other than forage is ludicrous. A cow's highest nutritional requirement all year is during peak milk production 2-3 months post-calving. If your forage base (availability of high quality forages) coincides with this time of high nutrition then there is no issue. Summer and winter annuals as well as perennial legumes assure success. The right genetics, the right forage base and the ability to manage forage utilization are key.

And the other high nutritional requirement is when she's in her 3rd trimester. Remember?

In the Bermuda grass / bahia belt grasses peak in their annual forage growth by the longest day of the year ---June 21 although during a wet Spring this can be extended to July 4th. These same forages while green in March and April are low in DM and growing slowly and can starve an early lactating cow to death. This is where forage utilization and /or manipulation plays a key role in the success for producers calving in the late winter (Feb). The forage chain must be established to compensate for this lack of nutrition.

I plan to talk about the forage chain in detail later.

I've yet to hear you post about the forage cycle where C3 grasses dominate, if you can include that it would be appreciated.

Fall calving requires you have in place a forage chain or you have manipulated your forage base with winter annuals and/or perennial cool season legumes. This takes a little more management than the feed bucket and some producers just don't have the understanding of forages or land and forage base to do this effectively.

In the fescue belt, fall calving can be done if the producer has a firm grasp of stockpiling. On non-infected fescue, spring calving is better because it returns more to the land base because the cows consumption is in sync with the seasonality of production and this also allows for a higher stocking rate.

For your last paragraph, spring calving is better suited because of the higher nutritional value in the cold-season grasses that occur in May/June. And this doesn't just apply to the fescue belt, it also applies to those up in Canuck country where stockpiling can be risky especially if they don't know when the snows come or how deep it will get and how quickly. Fall calving is more suited for those with the C4 forages i.e. down in the South/Southwest.

Plant Physiology
During the highest nutritional requirement all year a cows forage base must be high in digestibility and high in soluble carbohydrates. This requires an understanding of forages and these distinctions are classified by plant species, stage of growth and level of soil mineralization. Ex: Soil Ca is directly correlated to the soluble carbohydrate level in your grass.

True, except for your example. From what I remember learning at school, calcium is correlated to the level of P, because of the famed Ca ratio. Carbohydrate levels are more with carbon sequestration, sinks and sources as well as the cycle of carbon.

Ruminant nutrition--- There are people with Ph.D's that don't fully understand this topic.

:???: Elighten me.

Bottom line:
1. You must have some grass-fed genetics
2. You must choose a phase of operation that best suits your forage base.
3. You must fully understand the forage chain
4. You must fully understand plant physiology
5. You must somewhat understand ruminant nutrition.

Can't argue with you there.

 

[TexasBred]

Dun, Keep reading when I get to the economics -- you will then understand---completely
Ed

I can hardly wait[/quote]

So you are getting schooled, Dun--- it sure wont hurt ya
If these posts aren't helping anyone, at all, please let me know -- as there is no reason to waste my time if you are all determined to be bucket dependent your whole life.
Ed[/quote]


Probably some good propoganda in there is you're looking to get brainwashed.......I just don't remember anybody hiring you to teach the class....

Ruminant nutrition--- There are people with Ph.D's that don't fully understand this topic.

But you do love to quote these people IF they agree with you....or maybe they're the ones that indoctrinated you.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Ruminant nutrition--- There are people with Ph.D's that don't fully understand this topic.

But you do love to quote these people IF they agree with you....or maybe they're the ones that indoctrinated you.

:nod: :nod: It's like ed saying that these folks that have done the research and have earned the PhD have done all that only from their own imagination, so to speak, when the opposite is true.

I would really like to see examples of why Edrsimms says that. Maybe I'll learn something from it....(or not.)

 

[edrsimms]

Just wait Dun we haven't heard it all yet! I am just a foaming and a fuming to no just what breeds of cattle will get the job done.I am pretty sure my old Limis just won't cut the mustard.But then agin i am thinking edrsims cattle won't do much better eating fescue and persimmon bushes.

This is why you must first be able to decide whether or not your land base (forage base) will provide what is needed for a cow/calf operation and if not you may be better off doing something else, perhaps stockers

 

[edrsimms]

Again--- all good information interesting and informative, Texasbred, and looks like you have a firm grasp of copy and paste but as usual your posts tend to be irrelevant. So let's try to keep on the subject at hand.
Really fascinating info though--Tex-- ty

Land area (acre-days) needed to produce 1 pound of beef during the finishing phase
Organic grass-fed Grain-fed without growth-enhancing tech Grain-fed with growth-enhancing echnologies

5.04 1.99 1.64



Conventional feedyard-production technologies make the most efficient use of total farmland resources. This is particularly important as we consider:

The world population is estimated to reach 9 billion by the middle of the 21st century
The global demand for food will double by 2050 and there will continue to be increased per-capita demand for beef and other high-quality animal protein
Worldwide, we have a limited land area on which to produce food, feed and fiber
It is critical that we continue to conserve natural and biodiverse natural habitats

Conventional beef-production technologies reduce greenhouse gas emissions

Conventional grain-based beef-production systems reduce greenhouse-gas (GHG) emissions by 40 percent compared to grass-only finishing programs2. Growth-promoting technologies account for 25 percent of this reduction. Overall, beef production contributes only 2 percent of the GHG emissions in the U.S. compared to 80 percent from fossil-fuel combustion.


Additional resources

More Beef, Lower Cost — The Impact of Pharmaceutical Technology in Modern Beef Production Brochure
Author — John Lawrence, PhD, Iowa State University

Economic Analysis of Pharmaceutical Technologies in Modern Beef Production
in a Bioeconomy Era White Paper
Author — John Lawrence, PhD, Iowa State University

Growth-enhancing Pharmaceuticals — Safe for Consumers, Safe and Beneficial for the Environment Brochure
Author — Alex Avery, Center for Global Food Issues

The Environmental Safety and Benefits of Pharmaceutical Technologies in Beef Production White Paper
Author — Alex Avery, Center for Global Food Issues

Modern Beef Production Technology — Proven Safe, Economical and Environmentally Friendly for More Than Three Generations Brochure
Authors — Tom Elam, PhD, and Rod Preston, PhD

Fifty Years of Pharmaceutical Technology and its Impact on the Beef We Provide to Consumers White Paper
Authors — Tom Elam, PhD, and Rod Preston, PhD

 

[edrsimms]

John as usual your posts are irrelevant to the topic at hand -- try to stay focused or better yet you may want to sit this one out since you are a hardened grain-fed enthusiast. Again--- good info though -- you are trying at least.
Ed

So you are getting schooled, Dun--- it sure wont hurt ya

When Dun posts, I generally understand what he means. Ed's posts, not so much.
"When highly fertile cows are bred to highly fertile bulls – heritability is indeed significant... "--Ed
Kind of states the obvious, doesn't it?

If these posts aren't helping anyone, at all, please let me know -- as there is no reason to waste my time if you are all determined to be bucket dependent your whole life.
Ed

You've been getting responses from folks with hundreds of years of combined experience in the cattle business. They may know a little something about grass, cows and bulls, and finishing. I'm getting something from this discussion, but it is coming from the good folks who are responding to Ed.

 

[edrsimms]

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Cow/calf
The mature beef cow can utilize relatively low quality forage for most of the year as long as her calving is timed so she can put on body fat reserves before calving. Back fat becomes butter fat in the calf's milk and bypasses the rumen where it provides a slow release protein and energy source. The idea that a mature cow needs any supplementation other than forage is ludicrous. A cow's highest nutritional requirement all year is during peak milk production 2-3 months post-calving. If your forage base (availability of high quality forages) coincides with this time of high nutrition then there is no issue. Summer and winter annuals as well as perennial legumes assure success. The right genetics, the right forage base and the ability to manage forage utilization are key.

And the other high nutritional requirement is when she's in her 3rd trimester. Remember? No this is incorrect

In the Bermuda grass / bahia belt grasses peak in their annual forage growth by the longest day of the year ---June 21 although during a wet Spring this can be extended to July 4th. These same forages while green in March and April are low in DM and growing slowly and can starve an early lactating cow to death. This is where forage utilization and /or manipulation plays a key role in the success for producers calving in the late winter (Feb). The forage chain must be established to compensate for this lack of nutrition.

I plan to talk about the forage chain in detail later.

I've yet to hear you post about the forage cycle where C3 grasses dominate, if you can include that it would be appreciated. I plan to talk about the forage chain next as it should be it's own topic

Fall calving requires you have in place a forage chain or you have manipulated your forage base with winter annuals and/or perennial cool season legumes. This takes a little more management than the feed bucket and some producers just don't have the understanding of forages or land and forage base to do this effectively.

In the fescue belt, fall calving can be done if the producer has a firm grasp of stockpiling. On non-infected fescue, spring calving is better because it returns more to the land base because the cows consumption is in sync with the seasonality of production and this also allows for a higher stocking rate.

For your last paragraph, spring calving is better suited because of the higher nutritional value in the cold-season grasses that occur in May/June. And this doesn't just apply to the fescue belt, it also applies to those up in Canuck country where stockpiling can be risky especially if they don't know when the snows come or how deep it will get and how quickly. Fall calving is more suited for those with the C4 forages i.e. down in the South/Southwest.

Plant Physiology
During the highest nutritional requirement all year a cows forage base must be high in dchers to know some about that sunject loligestibility and high in soluble carbohydrates. This requires an understanding of forages and these distinctions are classified by plant species, stage of growth and level of soil mineralization. Ex: Soil Ca is directly correlated to the soluble carbohydrate level in your grass.

True, except for your example. From what I remember learning at school, calcium is correlated to the level of P, because of the famed Ca ratio. Carbohydrate levels are more with carbon sequestration, sinks and sources as well as the cycle of carbon.No, soil Ca relates to Lime Index in this example

Ruminant nutrition--- There are people with Ph.D's that don't fully understand this topic.

:???: Elighten me. That also should be it's own topic and I would expect most ranchers to understand that at least a little. one thing we must all understand is that there are few cattlemen with PhD's and even fewer Ph D's that are cattlemen

Bottom line:
1. You must have some grass-fed genetics
2. You must choose a phase of operation that best suits your forage base.
3. You must fully understand the forage chain
4. You must fully understand plant physiology
5. You must somewhat understand ruminant nutrition.

Can't argue with you there.

 

[john250]

John as usual your posts are irrelevant to the topic at hand -- try to stay focused or better yet you may want to sit this one out since you are a hardened grain-fed enthusiast. Again--- good info though -- you are trying at least.
Ed

So you are getting schooled, Dun--- it sure wont hurt ya

When Dun posts, I generally understand what he means. Ed's posts, not so much.
"When highly fertile cows are bred to highly fertile bulls – heritability is indeed significant... "--Ed
Kind of states the obvious, doesn't it?

If these posts aren't helping anyone, at all, please let me know -- as there is no reason to waste my time if you are all determined to be bucket dependent your whole life.
Ed

You've been getting responses from folks with hundreds of years of combined experience in the cattle business. They may know a little something about grass, cows and bulls, and finishing. I'm getting something from this discussion, but it is coming from the good folks who are responding to Ed.

Ed, as Frankie said, "Ya got nothing".
I noticed that ranch link you posted. The one where they wean 800+ lb calves on grass. They have a speaking schedule, I noticed. Just like Joel Salatin. Do you think, is it possible, that some grass fed producers might sensationalize things to energize their speaking schedule/prime source of income? Clearly, you see yourself as a worthy lecturer. I've had some great professors and some mediocre ones, too. You are the teaching assistant in danger of not being called back next semester.
Post it the way you see it. The suckers who get drawn into your web are people who weren't around when Ostriches were hot.

 

[edrsimms]

Economics 101 for Dun

I want to take a little time off, for Dun, and talk about a little economics, because if nothing else he is at least cordial and to the point and I don't mind sharing some economics with him.

I am going to use two variables and talk about the economics of feeding hay to cattle that vary in frame and genetics (Grain-fed genetics vs. Grass-fed genetics)

Feeding the Frame Score 6 > 7 Grain-fed genetic type cattle for 180 days
Forage base for hay is 730,000 lbs per yr
Average weight of cows is 1350 lbs (which is probably low) consuming 3% of BWt =
41 lbs per day of hay x 180 days = 7,290 lbs per cow
100 cows x 7290 = 729,000 lbs / 2000 lbs = 365 tons @ $100/ton = $36,500.00 for hay
Say our avg 1350 lb cow weans a 600 lb calf in 205 days that = 45% of cows BWt
100 calves @ 600 lbs go for $93 CWT = $558 x 100 = $55,800.00 and let's take out the cost of our variable which is hay = $55,800 – $36,500 = $19,300.00 net –
I don't know about you but I cannot live on that.

Ok let's do the same for a 1000 lb Grass-fed genetics type cow that weans 60% of her BWt on average (usually more).
She consumes 30 lbs of hay per day x 180 days = 5400 x 100 cows = 540,000 lbs =
270 tons x $100/ton = $27,000 for hay
Our 1000 lb cows wean a 600 lb calf for $93 CWT = $55,800.00
Due to my forage base of 730,000 lbs I can run more cattle in the 1000 lb range so
730,000 – 540,000 = 190,000 lbs surplus of hay enough for (190,000 /5400 = 35 more)
On the same forage base as above I can run 135 cows instead of just 100 and when adding those calves to my sales I have another $19,550.00 --- so,
$55,800.00 + $19,550 = $75,330.00 – $36,500.00 = $38,830.00 net

Summary: I more than doubled my profits by having smaller Frame Score cattle combined with grass-fed genetics. All remains the same -- except genetics.

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Where does all this hoopla address grain finishing vs grass finishing?

 

[edrsimms]

Hey John reach a little deeper see if you can pull any real information into this conversation and if not you might want to sit this one out with Tex and Frankie-- yall could talk about the good ole Ostrich days-- did you get suckered into the Ostrich Movement? Are you a large bird enthusiast too? Did you grain them too in an attempt to also destroy their foraging genetics? Maybe you and Tex could be the first to cross Ostrich with Limmis, but what color would the egg be for your Latitude? Lots of questions need answers there John and you guys could be the first to examine the whole realm of possibilities. What would you call your new Limmi x Ostrich? Maybe
Limmichs----

Ed, as Frankie said, "Ya got nothing".
I noticed that ranch link you posted. The one where they wean 800+ lb calves on grass. They have a speaking schedule, I noticed. Just like Joel Salatin. Do you think, is it possible, that some grass fed producers might sensationalize things to energize their speaking schedule/prime source of income? Clearly, you see yourself as a worthy lecturer. I've had some great professors and some mediocre ones, too. You are the teaching assistant in danger of not being called back next semester.
Post it the way you see it. The suckers who get drawn into your web are people who weren't around when Ostriches were hot.[/quote]

 

[HerefordSire]

Now you are getting somewhere.

 

[john250]

Hey John reach a little deeper see if you can pull any real information into this conversation and if not you might want to sit this one out with Tex and Frankie-- yall could talk about the good ole Ostrich days-- did you get suckered into the Ostrich Movement? Are you a large bird enthusiast too? Did you grain them too in an attempt to also destroy their foraging genetics? Maybe you and Tex could be the first to cross Ostrich with Limmis, but what color would the egg be for your Latitude? Lots of questions need answers there John and you guys could be the first to examine the whole realm of possibilities. What would you call your new Limmi x Ostrich? Maybe
Limmichs----

Nope. I never spent a dime on Ostriches, but I sure remember the sales pitches. Yer giving me flashbacks.

 

[dun]

Economics 101 for Dun

I want to take a little time off, for Dun, and talk about a little economics, because if nothing else he is at least cordial and to the point and I don't mind sharing some economics with him.

I am going to use two variables and talk about the economics of feeding hay to cattle that vary in frame and genetics (Grain-fed genetics vs. Grass-fed genetics)

Feeding the Frame Score 6 > 7 Grain-fed genetic type cattle for 180 days
Forage base for hay is 730,000 lbs per yr
Average weight of cows is 1350 lbs (which is probably low) consuming 3% of BWt =
41 lbs per day of hay x 180 days = 7,290 lbs per cow
100 cows x 7290 = 729,000 lbs / 2000 lbs = 365 tons @ $100/ton = $36,500.00 for hay
Say our avg 1350 lb cow weans a 600 lb calf in 205 days that = 45% of cows BWt
100 calves @ 600 lbs go for $93 CWT = $558 x 100 = $55,800.00 and let's take out the cost of our variable which is hay = $55,800 – $36,500 = $19,300.00 net –
I don't know about you but I cannot live on that.

Ok let's do the same for a 1000 lb Grass-fed genetics type cow that weans 60% of her BWt on average (usually more).
She consumes 30 lbs of hay per day x 180 days = 5400 x 100 cows = 540,000 lbs =
270 tons x $100/ton = $27,000 for hay
Our 1000 lb cows wean a 600 lb calf for $93 CWT = $55,800.00
Due to my forage base of 730,000 lbs I can run more cattle in the 1000 lb range so
730,000 – 540,000 = 190,000 lbs surplus of hay enough for (190,000 /5400 = 35 more)
On the same forage base as above I can run 135 cows instead of just 100 and when adding those calves to my sales I have another $19,550.00 --- so,
$55,800.00 + $19,550 = $75,330.00 – $36,500.00 = $38,830.00 net

Summary: I more than doubled my profits by having smaller Frame Score cattle combined with grass-fed genetics. All remains the same -- except genetics.

The Grass-fed cow/calf operation

Where does all this hoopla address grain finishing vs grass finishing?

For starters other then during the third year of a severe drought and after having thinned down to almost nothing. we rarely feed hay for even 45 days a year. During the summer we alternate between CSG and WSG which the cows hardly touch, they prefer the toxic fescue. We've selected for genetics that will perform on the forage we have. Spring calve the only grain they get is at weaning when we background them for 45 days before heading to the feeders. Cows will get a mouthful occasioanlly during breeding season when we use it to entice them into the lot so I can cut out the ones that need AIing. We only spring calves only because I'm too old to mess around with the problems of providing high nutrition during thr winter. Stockpiled toxic fescue works good enough. Our customers, the feedlots, like the type of cattle we provide, usually to the tune of a couple of bucks a cwt over market. Different environments allow (dictate) different managment strategys. In the desert the type of cow we ran woudln;t work here and the cattle here won;t work there. I'll continue to provide the raw material for the feers/killers/familys that prefer the kind of eating that comes form a young (too young in my estimation) well marbled piece of meat. That is the nitch I prefer filling.
These methods woudln;t wrok in the north, probably wouldn;t even work in the deep south, but they work here and that's where we are at the present time.