Got a question

[txag]

If a man is selling me an F-1 brangus, I expect that to be the first cross between a brahman and an angus.
If I'm buying an F-1 braford I expect that to be the first cross between a brahman and a herford.

i think most people will agree with you and most of the time you'd get what you expect.

 

[la4angus]

Brahman Herford cross.

Nooooo.

Listen to txag. She has probaly forgotten more about genetics than most of us remember and still knows more than the rest.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Brahman Herford cross.

Nooooo.

Listen to txag. She has probaly forgotten more about genetics than most of us remember and still knows more than the rest.

I concur txag is our resident genetics expert.

 

[cherokeeruby]

Well in Brahmanland when we cross a Gray Brahman with a Red Brahman we don't holler F-1 F-1, it is still a Brahman and can be registered as such.

 

[dun]

Only problem with an F1 Braford or Brangus is that there ain't such a thing. Braford 5/8 Hereford 3/8 Brahman, Brangus 5/8 Angus 3/8 Brahman.
Sooo, if some one is selling F1 Brafords they are really selling F1 Brahman X Hereford, unless the Braford is considered a pure breed (which it is pretty much considered) and it's crossed with another pure breed, i.e. Angus, Simmenthal, Holstein, etc.

dun

 

[CattleAnnie]

Speaking of genetics, came across a neat site a while back.

http://www.holsteinfoundation.org/pdffile/UndGenwk.pdf

Take care.

 

[Ryder]

If you cross two breeds, the offspring will be crossbred and F1's. They are the F1 generation in relationship to the parents (P1 generation). They are not F1 because they are a cross of two breeds.

Any offspring is the F1 generation in relation to the parents. If you mate a Brahman and a Hereford, the offspring will be crossbred and F1. If you mate two Herefords, the offspring will be the F1 generation, and they will also be Hereford, not crossbred.

Cattlemen (and of course women) usually "mean" crossbred offspring when they talk of F1's. Nothing wrong with this as long as everybody knows what they mean. However, some people assume F1 refers to two particular breeds. As has been pointed out, this can be understood different ways in different parts of the country. So, when using the term to refer to crossbreds, it is important understand what breeds are involved.

Just to make things more fun-the F2 generation is the offspring of F1 mated to F1. This gets into inbreeding.

 

[cherokeeruby]

Would you agree that a Brahman - Hereford cross would produce a hybrid animal?

Whereas the Angus-Hereford cross would not.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Would you agree that a Brahman - Hereford cross would produce a hybrid animal?

Whereas the Angus-Hereford cross would not.

I not goin put my dog in this fight.

 

[Ryder]

Cherokeeruby-I would 'show' your question here but I haven't learned how to do that yet.

According to Webster's, a hybrid is the offspring of two different breeds....
So Brahman X Hereford and Angus X Hereford would both produce hybrids.

However, we know that another name for heterosis is hybrid vigor, and I would expect the Brahman X Hereford cross to show more heterosis than the Angus X Hereford.

So while both would be hybrids, it stands to reason that the Brahman cross would be 'more of a hybrid'.

I know the wording sounds awkward, but is the best answer I can give.

 

[cherokeeruby]

I agree with you, the brahman hereford cross would show more heteroisty. So why don't we have a term for it?

If we cross a doberman and a pit bull we can one mean dog but it is a mutt. If we cross the doberman and a wolf we get a hybrid mean and dangerous animal. Why do cattle have the special ability to produce hybrids from the same species?

To quote the message just hit the quote box in the upper right instead of the reply at the bottom of page.

Cherokeeruby-I would 'show' your question here but I haven't learned how to do that yet.

According to Webster's, a hybrid is the offspring of two different breeds....
So Brahman X Hereford and Angus X Hereford would both produce hybrids.

However, we know that another name for heterosis is hybrid vigor, and I would expect the Brahman X Hereford cross to show more heterosis than the Angus X Hereford.

So while both would be hybrids, it stands to reason that the Brahman cross would be 'more of a hybrid'.

I know the wording sounds awkward, but is the best answer I can give.

 

[Ryder]

Cherokeeruby,
Thanks for the info on quote, but still can't get it to work. Will have to work on that.

We need a plant breeder to weigh in on this discussion. They work a lot with hybridization.

Speaking of Dobermans, I have had three. All of different temperments.
One was a very regal, aloof dog. One thought he was a lap dog. The third was one of the meanest dogs I have ever seen. Only one way to control him if you know what I mean. As a small puppy he would start fights with big dogs. This dog was inbred.

The best I ever had was a Weimaraner X Boxer cross. Very intelligent and trainable, as well as protective. I will say no more because when I start talking about that dog I don't know when to quit and this is suposed to be a cattle board.

 

[cherokeeruby]

I know how you feel about the dog. I have had animals that I could write a book about if I could write.

 

[txag]

According to Webster's, a hybrid is the offspring of two different breeds....
So Brahman X Hereford and Angus X Hereford would both produce hybrids.

However, we know that another name for heterosis is hybrid vigor, and I would expect the Brahman X Hereford cross to show more heterosis than the Angus X Hereford.

So while both would be hybrids, it stands to reason that the Brahman cross would be 'more of a hybrid'.

true. i think this is where some of the confusion came from earlier. i was using the term breeds because that's usually the easiest understood but it seems this time it created more confusion. Ruby, when you cross your two brahmans, you still have an F1 but you have no hybrid vigor (that's why in cattle terms, crossing two animals of the same breed is usually not called an F1). anytime you cross two breeds you have hybrid vigor (or heterosity) but the MOST hybrid vigor is seen in a bos taurus/bos indicus cross.

 

[jfont]

Happy Friday Everyone,
I keep seeing the term F1 on the board. You guys will probably think I just fell off the turnip truck, but what does this mean?

Humbly yours,

Carrie, do you know what it means now?

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

When the concept of heterosis or hybrid vigor was taught to me, the professor used corn as an example. All the corn that is grown commercially, in North America is hybrid corn. The way it is produced is to inbreed two lines of corn. The more you breed that corn back to itself the more dwarfed and stunted it becomes. This is called suppression and that corn will have a very fixed and dominant set of characteristics. The second corn that is being crossed with will also have a very fixed set of dominant characteristics that are different than the corn it is being crossed with. When the two are crossed. All of those dominant and desirable characteristics are represented in the hybrid giving it hybrid vigor with big lush looking plants.
The same is true in cattle lines. Any breed that has been linebred for a certain set of desirable and dominant characteristics will work well to cross with another breed that has been linebred for a different set of dominant characteristics. Among British breeds, you get some hybrid vigor. British to Continental should get you a little bit more. British to Indian cattle, a little more yet and British to American Buffalo should give you the most. Of course at some point, the F1's will be sterile as the cross is too far apart genetically.