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Giving repro drugs to cows.

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True Grit Farms

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BSE, has a great point about repo drugs not rotting the meat out like a vaccine or antibiotics. This I did not know so I was speaking out my but. I would like to have a discussion on this topic if we can keep the thread from getting locked.
I apologize to all for getting carried away on the Lute thread. We do a lot of different things promoting BQA, the Master Cattlemen's and educating the kids on beef, specifically the quality US raised beef. Hopefully we can move on and learn some more tips and tricks from each other.
 

bse

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I don't see anything that keeps getting these locked.
2 reasons I went to the hip, 1 was what the vet said about repro not rotting the meat. 2 the 1 1/2 needle seemed to hit bone sometimes in the neck, I did back up to 1 inch needle but didn't seem to get the response, so went to the hip bury that needle in the muscle, works for me, has nothing to do with lazy or anything.
 

M-5

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bse"[color=#FF0000:17pjumuq said:
]I don't see anything that keeps getting these locked[/color].
2 reasons I went to the hip, 1 was what the vet said about repro not rotting the meat. 2 the 1 1/2 needle seemed to hit bone sometimes in the neck, I did back up to 1 inch needle but didn't seem to get the response, so went to the hip bury that needle in the muscle, works for me, has nothing to do with lazy or anything.
One common denominator
 

Bigfoot

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Yaw are tenacious. Working on your third thread on the same subject.

I'll say this-------Anytime you give an animal less than the best care, it cost everybody a little.
 

Fire Sweep Ranch

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I pay my embryologist good money, and his conceptions are higher than the industry standard. There is a lot of money that goes into buying and producing them. If he tells me to give the shot in the hip (he explained about quick absorption and near the ovary), that is where the shot will go. He is the one with the vet degree, and knows more than I do about where and why. We set up our own cows for flushing, so we give all the hormones ourselves. We use 22g x 1 1/2 needle. He shows up on day 7 and does the flush, and then gives the cow a shot of estrumate in the hip before letting her out.
And by the way, the embryo goes in the horn on the same side as the CL, which could be left or right.
All other shots given at our farm are always in the neck region.
 
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T

True Grit Farms

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Bigfoot":1xubejfn said:
Yaw are tenacious. Working on your third thread on the same subject.

I'll say this-------Anytime you give an animal less than the best care, it cost everybody a little.

This is a very important topic, anything that will help pregnancy rates go up needs looking into. Drugs are the cheapest part of doing AI or ET work. BSE knows the ins and outs of cattle as good or better than anyone, he has my full attention on this matter. Good husbandry is a must first and foremost in raising quality beef for the consumer.
Just look at JBS selling rotten meat, they bought their way out and its already been put on the back burner.
 
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True Grit Farms

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Fire Sweep Ranch":1y4c5fuw said:
I pay my embryologist good money, and his conceptions are higher than the industry standard. There is a lot of money that goes into buying and producing them. If he tells me to give the shot in the hip (he explained about quick absorption and near the ovary), that is where the shot will go. He is the one with the vet degree, and knows more than I do about where and why. We set up our own cows for flushing, so we give all the hormones ourselves. We use 22g x 1 1/2 needle. He shows up on day 7 and does the flush, and then gives the cow a shot of estrumate in the hip before letting her out.
And by the way, the embryo goes in the horn on the same side as the CL, which could be left or right.
All other shots given at our farm are always in the neck region.

The problem is you need to feel around and find which horn has the CL. Just cuz someone tells me I can feed chicken litter to my cows doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
 

Bright Raven

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Don't like the 22 gauge needles. I bend too many. I use the 20 gauge 1 1/2. On occasion, I use 18 gauge. I feel for leakage as I withdraw.

True Grit: bse knows this vocation well. He also knows where the good deals on chutes are. He saved me $1000 on my Priefert.
 

gizmom

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I sure didn't mean to stir up a fire storm, I was just pointing out what the guidelines say. I really didn't see why the thread was locked. I would like someone to show me one place where giving the shot in the hip is better for ET work. I am talking where an educational article indicates that you get better results due to giving the injection in the hip due to whatever the actual reason would be. Not trying to be hard to get along with but I have been trying to find one and just can't.

http://cruachan.com.au/embryo_transfer.htm

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/FSA-3119.pdf

https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/def ... 2681_0.pdf

http://www.beefusa.org/CMDocs/BeefUSA/r ... N-2010.pdf

So far I have not found one article that states you get a better result by giving the shot close to the female working parts. I admit I haven't read every word of the articles but have scanned through them and didn't find anything.

And yes I am a hard headed ole bat! But I remember my mamma telling me just because someone jumps off a bridge does it mean you should? I want to do things for the right reason.

gizmom
 

Bright Raven

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Gizmom. Thanks for the publications.

I don't buy that the proximity to the ovaries is a significant factor. The hormone is going to be picked up first in the systemic circulatory system and flow back to the heart in the venous system before coming back to the ovaries in the arterial system.

I think it comes down to the fact that hormones do little or no harm to the flesh. The posterior is more convenient and if administration there does no harm, then it is appropo.

Your first article shows posterior administration.
 

gizmom

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Bright Raven

I guess I used a poor example, but note the article was written in 92 the BQA actually was still just getting started. Edited actually first studies began in 82.

BQA programs have evolved to include best practices around good record keeping and protecting herd health, which can result in more profits for producers. When better quality cows leave the farm and reach the market place, the producer, packer, and consumer all benefit. When better quality beef reaches the supermarket, consumers are more confident in the beef they are buying, and this increases beef consumption.

I think the program is still evolving, I also think you and BSE have valid points. How about I just agree to disagree with you on this one.

Gizmom
 

Bright Raven

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No disagreement. More than one way to skin a cat. Most important, a point of understanding and respect has been achieved.
 

bse

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I don't know that I go with the being closer to the ovaries, but I do believe getting deep in that muscle where its absorbed into the blood stream is a must. not saying it doesn't work in the neck, but way more muscle in that hip. And these are not feedlot cattle, sure at some point maybe burger!
 

wbvs58

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There is no doubt that there are some injections that have no or minimal effect at the site of injection however when an organisation such as your BQA gives a blanket recommendation to the public it is impossible to differentiate the various products so the site of the neck is recommended rather than the high dollar area of the rump which is very prudent.

Reproductive work is very specialised and expensive so if it was judged by an expert that a particular drug was safe to use in the rump and wanted the assurance that it landed in a large muscle mass such as the rump then that is how it should be. The neck can be unreliable for an IM injection, if the neck is bent when given it may land between muscle planes and not be as reliable. Yes I agree with Ron, no correlation to being close to the ovaries, just a reliable muscle mass and blood supply.

Also bare in mind that some drugs may have minimal effect on surrounding tissue yet an occaisional animal may be sensitive to it and react.

Other SC injection sites that are very usefull that haven't been mentioned yet are behind the ear and the anal skin fold. I use the anal fold to vaccinate my bulls with a nasty crude inactivated Vibrio vaccine that we have, It is a 5ml oily adjuvant vaccine that always reacts, it is slow to inject and the bulls never bat an eyelid when you are working on their rear end.

Ken
 

Bigfoot

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wbvs58":3jgews9g said:
There is no doubt that there are some injections that have no or minimal effect at the site of injection however when an organisation such as your BQA gives a blanket recommendation to the public it is impossible to differentiate the various products so the site of the neck is recommended rather than the high dollar area of the rump which is very prudent.

Reproductive work is very specialised and expensive so if it was judged by an expert that a particular drug was safe to use in the rump and wanted the assurance that it landed in a large muscle mass such as the rump then that is how it should be. The neck can be unreliable for an IM injection, if the neck is bent when given it may land between muscle planes and not be as reliable. Yes I agree with Ron, no correlation to being close to the ovaries, just a reliable muscle mass and blood supply.

Also bare in mind that some drugs may have minimal effect on surrounding tissue yet an occaisional animal may be sensitive to it and react.

Other SC injection sites that are very usefull that haven't been mentioned yet are behind the ear and the anal skin fold. I use the anal fold to vaccinate my bulls with a nasty crude inactivated Vibrio vaccine that we have, It is a 5ml oily adjuvant vaccine that always reacts, it is slow to inject and the bulls never bat an eyelid when you are working on their rear end.

Ken

Interesting post.
 

TennesseeTuxedo

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M-5":2m8zzepp said:
bse"[color=#FF0000:2m8zzepp said:
]I don't see anything that keeps getting these locked[/color].
2 reasons I went to the hip, 1 was what the vet said about repro not rotting the meat. 2 the 1 1/2 needle seemed to hit bone sometimes in the neck, I did back up to 1 inch needle but didn't seem to get the response, so went to the hip bury that needle in the muscle, works for me, has nothing to do with lazy or anything.
One common denominator

Grit?
 

Commercialfarmer

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Before I forget, BSE, every drug has a half life. Some shorter than others.. it is purely a measurement of how quickly they are filtered- time it takes to only be at 1/2 the initial concentration.

Second, there will always be bacteria on the skin and any time you stick a needle through the skin you are introducing bacteria. Generally not a problem, but there is a small percent of injections that will abcess no matter what you are giving. It adds up over millions of times.

Third, if you give any foreign substance including saline, the body will react. There are plenty of drug companies that will slaughter calves comparing drugs to prove it to you. ALL substances can and do affect meat quality. Some larger areas and more extensively than others. That is not saying that meat is aways trimmed. But again, it may be. Or maybe it is just tougher. A small percent again adds up over millions. If you haven't seen muscle tissue flayed open that's been injected with different medications several weeks prior, you should if given the chance.

Rules are always broken, but they get made for a reason as well and should be followed as much as possible.

Number of cattle involved in embryo transfer isn't much compared to total head count, but there are still several and they do add to the impact of the industry.
 

brownvet

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gizmom":2sep0gy2 said:
I sure didn't mean to stir up a fire storm, I was just pointing out what the guidelines say. I really didn't see why the thread was locked. I would like someone to show me one place where giving the shot in the hip is better for ET work. I am talking where an educational article indicates that you get better results due to giving the injection in the hip due to whatever the actual reason would be. Not trying to be hard to get along with but I have been trying to find one and just can't.

http://cruachan.com.au/embryo_transfer.htm

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/FSA-3119.pdf

https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/def ... 2681_0.pdf

http://www.beefusa.org/CMDocs/BeefUSA/r ... N-2010.pdf

So far I have not found one article that states you get a better result by giving the shot close to the female working parts. I admit I haven't read every word of the articles but have scanned through them and didn't find anything.

And yes I am a hard headed ole bat! But I remember my mamma telling me just because someone jumps off a bridge does it mean you should? I want to do things for the right reason.

gizmom

Great info, we are talking about Hormones, the site of injection has no impact on the response of the hypothalamus to release them. But sure will have impact on the meat quality, it will take up to 5 months to clear that spot of injection on a bigger muscle.
 

Commercialfarmer

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brownvet":15s5cren said:
gizmom":15s5cren said:
I sure didn't mean to stir up a fire storm, I was just pointing out what the guidelines say. I really didn't see why the thread was locked. I would like someone to show me one place where giving the shot in the hip is better for ET work. I am talking where an educational article indicates that you get better results due to giving the injection in the hip due to whatever the actual reason would be. Not trying to be hard to get along with but I have been trying to find one and just can't.

http://cruachan.com.au/embryo_transfer.htm

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/FSA-3119.pdf

https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/def ... 2681_0.pdf

http://www.beefusa.org/CMDocs/BeefUSA/r ... N-2010.pdf

So far I have not found one article that states you get a better result by giving the shot close to the female working parts. I admit I haven't read every word of the articles but have scanned through them and didn't find anything.

And yes I am a hard headed ole bat! But I remember my mamma telling me just because someone jumps off a bridge does it mean you should? I want to do things for the right reason.

gizmom

Great info, we are talking about Hormones, the site of injection has no impact on the response of the hypothalamus to release them. But sure will have impact on the meat quality, it will take up to 5 months to clear that spot of injection on a bigger muscle.

Remodeling occurs, but some scar tissue can remain for a lifetime as well.
 

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