Gerald Fry and Grassfed beef.

[KMacGinley]

What do you guys think of Gerald Frys theories about cattle selection? Also you feel that cattle can be adequately grass finished or is that just a feel good thing, like a lot of the organic food movement. The Angus Journal had a sidebar in the Diamond D article saying that you would have to eat 100lbs. of grassfed beef to recieve the cancer fighting levels of Omega 6 fatty acids

 

[Frankie]

As long as there's a demand for grass fed beef, I hope someone will fill that demand. Some people prefer the taste. Some people think it's healthier, but there's no proof that it is. With good genetics, cattle can finish as Choice grade, if the producer can keep good quality forage in front of them all their lives. That's not an easy thing to do. But anytime people are eating beef, it makes me happy.

I have to admit, though, that it rubs me the wrong way when I see the organic people jumping on BSE to scare people away from eating non-organic beef. Not everyone can afford to buy organic beef. If they shy away from regular beef and eat chicken instead, it hurts the beef industry as a whole.

 

[KMacGinley]

I guess the question is "What is good genetics"? Are they the frame 3 cattle that they are always pushing? or can larger cattle also finish on grass?

 

[Brandonm2]

I would think that early maturing frame score 2 and 3 cattle WOULD be preferable to 5, 6, and 7 frame score cattle on a grass finishing operation.

 

[Frankie]

I guess the question is "What is good genetics"? Are they the frame 3 cattle that they are always pushing? or can larger cattle also finish on grass?

We don't raise grass fed beef, but I'd think that the smaller framed animals would finish faster. Sure larger animals can finish on grass. But it takes longer.

When I think about finishing animals on grass, I think about how many cows could be utilizing that same grass and producing another calf to sell. But that's just me.

 

[dun]

I think Kit Pharo pushes the FS 4-5 for his ideas of grass finsished beef.

dun

 

[MikeC]

We don't raise grass fed beef, but I'd think that the smaller framed animals would finish faster. Sure larger animals can finish on grass. But it takes longer.

And they weigh more. I sell feds by the pound.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I guess the question is "What is good genetics"? Are they the frame 3 cattle that they are always pushing? or can larger cattle also finish on grass?

We don't raise grass fed beef, but I'd think that the smaller framed animals would finish faster. Sure larger animals can finish on grass. But it takes longer.

When I think about finishing animals on grass, I think about how many cows could be utilizing that same grass and producing another calf to sell. But that's just me.

No, Frankie, it's NOT just you! I agree with you - and it's not just the "Frame" subject as a talking point, but the target of discussion on almost ANY subject, whether it applies to feeding cattle, or - EPD's, or - subjecting our ranch animals to "unfair living conditions" - - there is always some 'burning question which must be resolved" for the continuing good of humanity - and the preservation of ALL living things! The subliminal agenda(s) of those who would "change the world" just for the sake of change are legion, and the logic and/or achieving of success is of no consequence! It is the 'busy-ness' of doing - NOT accomplishing which fuels their efforts and exertions.

Your suggestion regarding producing more beef on the same grass is a valid one, and and I commend you for your foresight. The underlying theme of improved production with less expense and human effort justifies every act which makes our BUSINESS more profitable. We need to keep our attention on the bottom line!

DOC HARRIS

 

[SEC]

I am totally intrigued with this as well, though have some reservations for many reasons.
As a seedstock producer, there are breeders in Canada who breed a smaller frame animal and at this point there is not a lot of people who are looking for a Frame score 4-5 animal.

Up here I would guess 6-6.5 would be normal although there are breeders who would breed bigger framed cattle yet.
So, if I was to start breeding more moderate framed animals and my customers said, "Nice bull, I don't think he is bigger enough to breed my cows" and walks away. Who do you sell these cattle to then?
As well Western Canada is a large grain area, with the feed grain that's around and the last years there has been a fair bit of it. Farmers will keep calves and feed them for the winter and sell them in the spring hoping to turn their grain into cash. If they were to feed this smaller type calves and market them in the spring they might be a little fleshy for grass.
Secondly, people up here like the animals to respond to the feed. No doubt the smaller framed ones would respond, but their curve would be a little smaller.
The FS 4-5 cattle that are thick.......do they actually weigh enough when they are on the rail? To little of an animal is just as costly as there are fixed costs based upon the pounds produced and gain, etc.

It also seems like cattle, like wildlife naturally grow a little more frame up here than down south. I have purchased some cows from a few outfits in Montana and when I went through their cows in the summer, very few would rival these cows in frame.
I don't overfeed, I am a good manager of grass and feeding when it's most needed. When I am feeding cows before they calve they are limited to 30 lbs of hay /day. Every 7-10 days I skip a day forcing them to clean up a little what they haven't already, that is if it's not to cold out.
Once the cattle calve I feed them more, not to the point of wasting feed but so they just about have every bit gone. Just before I turn the cows onto pasture they are eating 40lbs /day of hay plus 5 lbs of pellets, this is with Jan/Feb calves at side. I turn out to grass on May 1st. Our 1st calf heifers seldom come in looking tough, the good ones come in with a little cover on their backs. I don't overgraze the cattle and I keep mineral on hand constantly, in fact I could graze harder if needed. Our cows would average about 1350-1400lbs, some heavier some lighter. In doing this I am trying to manage the cattle in a way the they would fit into a commercial herd, keeping the purebreds realistic.

The grass fed, low input thing goes through my head a lot but am not sure it's logical in my area today! If a person were to sell 2 year old bulls, you need places to hide them for the summer, plus a corral that would be like Alkatraz as they wreck everything.

Regardless, I believe there aren't enough "honest"cattle around today and natural fleshing ability is something that can be overlooked and certainly hard to measure depending on management systems.

 

[SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE]

What do you guys think of Gerald Frys theories about cattle selection? Also you feel that cattle can be adequately grass finished or is that just a feel good thing, like a lot of the organic food movement. The Angus Journal had a sidebar in the Diamond D article saying that you would have to eat 100lbs. of grassfed beef to recieve the cancer fighting levels of Omega 6 fatty acids

Some breeds may be more conducive to grass finishing than others.I happen to know some people in Oklahoma that raise grass finished beef and say that they sell all they can raise every year. That breed is Murray Grey.....they will marble on grass! ;-) :cboy:

 

[purecountry]

I think Kit Pharo pushes the FS 4-5 for his ideas of grass finsished beef.

dun

From the bit I've discussed with Kit via e-mail, he likes 2-3 frame cattle. They just put down a herd bull that walked their pastures for 10 years. He measured 51 inches at the hip, being a frame score 2.5, and weighed 1800 lbs. I think we need to be careful what we're guessing at for frame scores. 6 frame cattle are darn big. Lots of folks say they want a 1200 lb cow herd that's easy fleshing and raises a calf with minimal input. YOU WILL NOT GET THAT WITH A FRAME 5 BULL.

Most commercial cowherds in Western Canada would average 1400lbs OR MORE. Most bulls that are considered popular are a frame score 5-6 OR MORE. So do you think it's coincidence that the average carcass size in Canada according to Canfax has steadily increased for 10 years?

If you want moderate framed cattle, they're out there. Look at rkaiser's bulls - THEY ARE OUT THERE. Those type of bulls will leave 1200lb daughters with flesh and function. They'll sire herd bulls who will walk pastures for 10 years without losing condition or needing their feet trimmed annually, settling cows and passing on that tremendous depth, thickness and muscle.

GET OVER YOUR IDEAS THAT GOOD CATTLE HAVE TO BE THE ONES THAT OUTGROW EVERYTHING ELSE. GROWTH IS GOOD, PROFIT IS BETTER.

I personally think that folks like Kit Pharo, Dennis Wobeser, Don Campbell and many others are on the right track as far as grass-based genetics. 2-3 frame cattle with thickness and flesh are the MOST ideally suited to sustainable profit. They have proven it for themselves, I've proven it for the sake of my own operation. The smaller I've bred my cows - WHILE MAINTAINING STRUCTURAL QUALITY - the better they've done. I'm going to get rid of the last of my 1500lb cows once we've weaned the calves next week.

As for beef, check out http://www.cambrianmeats.co.nz

That's the site for Ewan Campbell's company in New Zealand. They sell grass-finished beef, lamb and other stuff, and because of the balanced structure of their soils, they say their beef is very high in Omega-3 fatty acids. I met Ewan last fall when he came here, and I believe him in what he says. There is nothing healthier than that which comes from healthy soils. It has alot more to do with that than any breed or animal. With that said, I will stand firm in my opinion that smaller, thicker bovines are still best suited to harvesting that grass and turning it into healthy food.

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't have any direct experiences with grass fattening; but the ones preaching it down here are preaching older smaller genetics. IF the energy is less, the calf needs to be less. It makes sense to me. When we were grass finishing the cow herd got smaller framed every year.

http://www.grassgeneticsplus.com/grassf ... etics.html

This site is recommending 3-4.5 frame cattle

Teddie Gentry at Bent Tree Farms is talking about small frame cattle as well and is using some really older sires to do it.

 

[purecountry]

That's a neat site, Brandonm2. Noticed Larry Sansom on there, as well as Kit Pharo, and Waples ( Brass Ring Galloways ). My herd bull that I bought from rkaiser was sired by a Brass Ring bull.

 

[purecountry]

Here's a frame score chart I found:

Table 5.1--Bull Hip Height (inches) Frame Score

Age in
Months Frame Score
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
5 33.5 35.5 37.5 39.5 41.6 43.6 45.6 47.7 49.7
6 34.8 36.8 38.8 40.8 42.9 44.9 46.9 48.9 51.0
7 36.0 38.0 40.0 42.1 44.1 46.1 48.1 50.1 52.2
8 37.2 39.2 41.2 43.2 45.2 47.2 49.3 51.3 53.3
9 38.2 40.2 42.3 44.3 46.3 48.3 50.3 52.3 54.3
10 39.2 41.2 43.3 45.3 47.3 49.3 51.3 53.3 55.3
11 40.2 42.2 44.2 46.2 48.2 50.2 52.2 54.2 56.2
12 41.0 43.0 45.0 47.0 49.0 51.0 53.0 55.0 57.0
13 41.8 43.8 45.8 47.8 49.8 51.8 53.8 55.8 57.7
14 42.5 44.5 46.5 48.5 50.4 52.4 54.4 56.4 58.4
15 43.1 45.1 47.1 49.1 51.1 53.0 55.0 57.0 59.0
16 43.6 45.6 47.6 49.6 51.6 53.6 55.6 57.5 59.5
17 44.1 46.1 48.1 50.1 52.0 54.0 56.0 58.0 60.0
18 44.5 46.5 48.5 50.5 52.4 54.4 56.4 58.4 60.3
19 44.9 46.8 48.8 50.8 52.7 54.7 56.7 58.7 60.6
20 45.1 47.1 49.1 51.0 53.0 55.0 56.9 58.9 60.9
21 45.3 47.3 49.2 51.2 53.2 55.1 57.1 59.1 61.0
Frame Score = -11.548 + 0.4878 (Ht) - 0.0289 (Days of Age) + 0.00001947(Days of Age)2 + 0.0000334 (Ht) (Days of Age)

 

[Brandonm2]

Here is what Kit Pharo has to say on frame....
http://www.pharocattle.com/philosophies.htm

 

[dun]

The only fly in the ointment in the samller cattle is what market you are supplying. The feedlots that buy our calves want large mediums to medium large calves. A 5 will just barely make the lower cut. Doesn;t matter how inexpensively you can raise them if you don;t have a buyer.

dun

 

[frenchie]

Is not the purpose of this smaller frame game to run smaller cows raising terminal sired calves.

 

[Brandonm2]

Is not the purpose of this smaller frame game to run smaller cows raising terminal sired calves.

That is one school of thought. The other is to raise moderate framed calves for the grass finishing market. Early maturing cattle fatten much sooner than do late maturing calves and IF you are going to grass fatten your own calves earlier maturing should be quicker maturing calves. I personally would FAR RATHER raise frame score 3 cows than 5s or 6s. I think we made a HUGE mistake when we bumped the cow size up to the current extremes; but dun is right in that there is a dock on USDA small (1-3) calves so you had better know where and how you are going to market those calves; before you buy those little cows.

 

[frenchie]

Is not the purpose of this smaller frame game to run smaller cows raising terminal sired calves.

; but dun is right in that there is a dock on USDA small (1-3) calves so you had better know where and how you are going to market those calves; before you buy those little cows.

As an old rancher told me up here ...its all in the marketing.

 

[SEC]

I hear you and I understand what you are saying.

I don't think that frame 6 is really that large, go to a show and and an actual frame score on the cattle in Canada, not very many would be a frame 6, let alone less.

Let's not get out of whack on cow weights either. Ohlde's will have many moderate frame cows weigh 12-1400 lbs, Tim told me that himself. So how do you stop a cow from becoming heavy?

I feel some of the grass fed scenario's seem to not feed their cattle at all and brag about how tough they are and how much they don't weigh. That doesn't mean anything if they are skinny. If they are in good shape and you feed them nothing, those are the cows that I want. If you feed an animal adequately through the winter and have lots of grass, what are you supposed to do with a frame 5 cow that weighs 1500lbs? How about if she brings in a big calf that is 1/2 of her weight?

I have a couple cows that are 14 years olds and going like the energizer bunny. They would weigh 14-1500lbs, feet never trimmed, never come up open, always calved at the beginning of their cycle and never had to mess or treat them once. These are cows that I would like to flush. Some would say their genetics aren't fresh enough anymore, they don't know that!
If an average cow could last until they were at least 10 or 11 years of age, there would be more money in everyone's pocket for sure.

If I can figure this picture thing out I will post pictures.