Genetic planning

[Bcompton53]

Yeah after the comment about large sav cattle being not true anymore, I went and looked at a bunch of their herd sires, and by far the majority were huge ww yh, low $en. The bulls they are selling sure are uniform though. They all look the same, pretty weak in the back. Little clubby looking for me.

 

[hornedfrogbbq]

Everyone has their look they look. Some like'em tall (and can feed them to maximize that), some like them moderate (I raise my hand on that one). Some like them to marble, some like to sell pounds. Some retain ownership, some wean on a sale truck. Everyone attacks it differently.

That being said, what i think is mostly Universal = each of us would like to maximize our profitability in our specific, unique model. Variabilities include amount of land, amount of water, distribution of water, amount of forage, historical genetics, etc. In each of our very unique circumstances, we'd like to minimize our input costs, maximize our return on those inputs and bring as much to the bottom line in profitability as possible.

Based on that I can see why there are so many seed providers focused on so many different priorities. One thing I guarantee you, we will all try and be economically rational in making a decision. It may not work out and mistakes will be made but we are all giving it the best we can.

That is where I am seeking input. Given my certain set of circumstances and a background in Connealy Consensus genetics, what would anyone suggest could make those cattle more profitable from a BREEDING point of view? That sure can be interpreted differently by different folks...and I thank you each for your suggestions.

 

[hornedfrogbbq]

I'd use Resource. He is a proven cowmaker and looks like he grades really good. Obviously won't improve the Marbling on Paper though.
I think he should cross well on those lines.

How do you know which angus lines cross well? Serious question I am trying to get myself established in the seedstock world.

To be honest, you don't really know what will work good together. As Breeders, we are always trying to improve our cattle. There are strengths and weaknesses to each Sire that we use.
We have used Ten X progeny and they do many things well, but they definitely have some negatives, especially feet, structure and maternally.
Resource is a bull that will fix a lot of those issues. He Sires heavy muscled, moderate framed, easy fleshing calves with good feet.
His negatives are that he is not a Low Birthweight Calving Ease Sire and some think that they are not big enough frame size.
What I like about him, is that they grow to a year as good as any bull out there and then shut it down. They don't continue to grow to be enormously huge like other Growth bulls. His daughters are fantastic and by reading the bottom of that picture I sent, his calves grade near the top for Carcass traits.

LC, I can't pull up that picture for some reason but he actually has a negative EPD in marbling?

 

[Hunter]

Looking out 3 years, since SAV cattle aren't known for their marbling traits, I might come back with more marbling bulls and semen. GAR clearly focuses on that but many don't like their "look." I know Bub's rings alot of bells on our multi-trait EPD selection process. VAR seems to focus heavily on 10x genetics to get their carcass quality...as does 44 farms (although both clearly use other sires as well. We joke that the 44 farm's sale is like shopping at Target...something for everyone!)

I have been looking at their sales books lately to maybe purchase some females.
What is the "look" of their cattle that some don't like?

 

[CattleMan1920]

If I was in your shoes and retaining ownership, I would never feed a straight bred steer.
Split up your herd, best cows get straight bred for replacement, lower 2/3rds gets crossed to improve ADG, F/G, and increased vigor.
If you already have good carcass traits, and a good group of cows, I would use Simmental or some Continental to give you better over all muscling, and with simmy you wouldn't be sacrificing carcass, and you could breed for moderate frame. (Most simmy's are smaller framed than the mainline angus.)

I would have to respectfully disagree.

Why would you want to take a purebred Angus here and dilute them?

Take a look at the newest Midland test report, it's the one called "Final Progress Report"

The ADG difference between Angus and Simmental was almost a rounding error in favor of Simmental. On top of that the Angus had vastly more data to draw upon in the test. I think there were only a handful of Simmental versus pages of Angus. The Angus performance was excellent, and I think Midland is a good measurement for overall performance.

I'm crossing SAV genetics back with Baldridge Colonel, VAR, Bubs Southern Charm, and a few others, and it works.

So far I like the heft that SAV brings to the table, but the epds that Baldridge Colonel can deliver.

I know what I said will probably get a lot of flack, but our Angus have plenty of vigor, and we get very solid ADG numbers without sacrificing marbling and $YG scores.

I'm not telling the original poster what to do, but I would DNA test everything, get a good idea of where I stand and then aggressively improve. Use every tool that Angus has to make that money.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I thought people always considered SAV to grow big giant cows. some folks want that, but to me, that sounds more terminal than maternal.

The only people I've heard talk about how huge SAV cows must be are people that haven't used the genetics. You can find SAV bulls that will add frame but our experience is they are moderate for the most part.

"Big" is a relative term.
You can have "big" cows that weigh 1400 pounds, or you can have "big" cows that weigh 1800 pounds. Just depends which scale you are using.
SAV may have "moderate" framed cows, but they have "big" cows that weigh a lot, and weight is a bigger factor in feed consumption.
It's just that all these years we've been taught tall frame means "big cow".

Old habits die hard.

Then you can cross the 2k pound mark. LOL! Which garners the comment, when seen in person, "0h sh.t that is a big momma!"

 

[Jake]

Looking out 3 years, since SAV cattle aren't known for their marbling traits, I might come back with more marbling bulls and semen. GAR clearly focuses on that but many don't like their "look." I know Bub's rings alot of bells on our multi-trait EPD selection process. VAR seems to focus heavily on 10x genetics to get their carcass quality...as does 44 farms (although both clearly use other sires as well. We joke that the 44 farm's sale is like shopping at Target...something for everyone!)

I have been looking at their sales books lately to maybe purchase some females.
What is the "look" of their cattle that some don't like?

The whole turning angus into a wagyu look.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

If I was in your shoes and retaining ownership, I would never feed a straight bred steer.
Split up your herd, best cows get straight bred for replacement, lower 2/3rds gets crossed to improve ADG, F/G, and increased vigor.
If you already have good carcass traits, and a good group of cows, I would use Simmental or some Continental to give you better over all muscling, and with simmy you wouldn't be sacrificing carcass, and you could breed for moderate frame. (Most simmy's are smaller framed than the mainline angus.)

I would have to respectfully disagree.

Why would you want to take a purebred Angus here and dilute them?

Take a look at the newest Midland test report, it's the one called "Final Progress Report"

The ADG difference between Angus and Simmental was almost a rounding error in favor of Simmental. On top of that the Angus had vastly more data to draw upon in the test. I think there were only a handful of Simmental versus pages of Angus. The Angus performance was excellent, and I think Midland is a good measurement for overall performance.

I'm crossing SAV genetics back with Baldridge Colonel, VAR, Bubs Southern Charm, and a few others, and it works.

So far I like the heft that SAV brings to the table, but the epds that Baldridge Colonel can deliver.

I know what I said will probably get a lot of flack, but our Angus have plenty of vigor, and we get very solid ADG numbers without sacrificing marbling and $YG scores.

I'm not telling the original poster what to do, but I would DNA test everything, get a good idea of where I stand and then aggressively improve. Use every tool that Angus has to make that money.

When it comes to the feedlot, there's more to it than ADG. Straight bred steers almost always under perform compared to cross cattle.
Ask anyone that runs a feedlot which they would prefer.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If I was in your shoes and retaining ownership, I would never feed a straight bred steer.
Split up your herd, best cows get straight bred for replacement, lower 2/3rds gets crossed to improve ADG, F/G, and increased vigor.
If you already have good carcass traits, and a good group of cows, I would use Simmental or some Continental to give you better over all muscling, and with simmy you wouldn't be sacrificing carcass, and you could breed for moderate frame. (Most simmy's are smaller framed than the mainline angus.)

I would have to respectfully disagree.

Why would you want to take a purebred Angus here and dilute them?

Take a look at the newest Midland test report, it's the one called "Final Progress Report"

The ADG difference between Angus and Simmental was almost a rounding error in favor of Simmental. On top of that the Angus had vastly more data to draw upon in the test. I think there were only a handful of Simmental versus pages of Angus. The Angus performance was excellent, and I think Midland is a good measurement for overall performance.

I'm crossing SAV genetics back with Baldridge Colonel, VAR, Bubs Southern Charm, and a few others, and it works.

So far I like the heft that SAV brings to the table, but the epds that Baldridge Colonel can deliver.

I know what I said will probably get a lot of flack, but our Angus have plenty of vigor, and we get very solid ADG numbers without sacrificing marbling and $YG scores.

I'm not telling the original poster what to do, but I would DNA test everything, get a good idea of where I stand and then aggressively improve. Use every tool that Angus has to make that money.

When it comes to the feedlot, there's more to it than ADG. Straight bred steers almost always under perform cross cattle.
Ask anyone that runs a feedlot which they would prefer.

I guess we are talking two kinds of Angus.

Today I was speaking with Bright Raven and we were discussing Angus we see in Kentucky. So many now have stacked high CED, low BW genetics that they probably would have trouble calving out anything but a jackrabbit. I kid, but they are getting more puny, so I can definitely see why you would recommend the cross.

I don't raise ordinary Angus, so I can often view things differently.

 

[kentuckyguy]

On a note about Angus cow size I must admit I was truly amazed when I took my AI class at UK.

They brought several open cows in for us to practice on and also had some bred cows for us to palpate.

All of the cows were 1750lbs and up. I thought for sure they were crossedbred but the turned out to all be purebred Angus. Definitely don't see that big of cows around here.

They were pretty to look at but I would also guess they would be expensive to keep through the winter.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I guess we are talking two kinds of Angus.

Today I was speaking with Bright Raven and we were discussing Angus we see in Kentucky. So many now have stacked high CED, low BW genetics that they probably would have trouble calving out anything but a jackrabbit. I kid, but they are getting more puny, so I can definitely see why you would recommend the cross.

I don't raise ordinary Angus, so I can often view things differently.

So how do your non-ordinary Angus steers preform compared to say a Sim-Angus or sim-char-ang steer?

 

[CattleMan1920]

I guess we are talking two kinds of Angus.

Today I was speaking with Bright Raven and we were discussing Angus we see in Kentucky. So many now have stacked high CED, low BW genetics that they probably would have trouble calving out anything but a jackrabbit. I kid, but they are getting more puny, so I can definitely see why you would recommend the cross.

I don't raise ordinary Angus, so I can often view things differently.

So how do your non-ordinary Angus steers preform compared to say a Sim-Angus or sim-char-ang steer?

I've never kept them all the way to slaughter, but the majority of my herd scores well above average for marbling and $YG, with all of those animals DNA tested.

I feel fairly confident that they aren't going to suddenly offer up negative surprises.

We will be steering more as we grow our operation so I will let you know when that happens. We are going to be steering all non AI sons moving forward. The steers will be grandsons of top AI sires.

As for the non ordinary comment, it has to do with the care of the cattle. I put a lot of effort into them, and they perform well because of it.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

If you say so.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If you say so.

I do! LOL!

What the he.ll do I know?, I feed em, they get big, simple as that.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Yep, it's just that simple. Next time I'm figuring COG on a group of steers, or need a least cost ration, I'll give you yelp and see what I should do.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Yep, it's just that simple. Next time I'm figuring COG on a group of steers, or need a least cost ration, I'll give you yelp and see what I should do.

I'm here for ya!

 

[LCBulls]

LC, I can't pull up that picture for some reason but he actually has a negative EPD in marbling?
[/quote]

It's about halfway through the book

http://www.angusjournal.com/salebooks/schaffsemen2019/mobile/index.html#1