Gelbvieh
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Nesikep
Well-known member
I would only consider a Balancer if it isn't an F1 for the exact reasons stated.. someone else is getting the hybrid vigor benefits.. Now if you have a herd of GV/Angus crosses that has been tightly bred, they will have more homozygous genes and thus start to contribute to hybrid vigor for you once again.. this would of course take generations.
As for teats and udders, maybe I just got lucky, but the GV bull I had was a definite "improver" in that aspect, not one cow has had a problematic udder, many were darned good looking... Here's a nice pair
As for teats and udders, maybe I just got lucky, but the GV bull I had was a definite "improver" in that aspect, not one cow has had a problematic udder, many were darned good looking... Here's a nice pair
Black and Good
Well-known member
cfpinz":2mhzs1uv said:
In my opinion "Mongrel" is a little harsh. They have their purpose for example if you are making 3/4 blood angus 1/4 blood GV or you want to make 3/4 blood GV's. If you have 50/50 Balancer cows and you want to keep them 50/50. But, I do agree if you heavily crossbred cows a balancer bull my not be the ticket. B&G
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
A F1 balancer (or limflex, etc) bull could be a low cost way to do a three way cross.
For example, start with commercial herf cows, put a balancer bull on them ... take the resulting heifers to a herf bull ... take those females to a balancer bull ... etc ... two breeding pastures, not three.
Eventually, you'd get to a place where the balancer sired calves would be almost exactly 1/3 of each breed.
For example, start with commercial herf cows, put a balancer bull on them ... take the resulting heifers to a herf bull ... take those females to a balancer bull ... etc ... two breeding pastures, not three.
Eventually, you'd get to a place where the balancer sired calves would be almost exactly 1/3 of each breed.
Black and Good
Well-known member
WalnutCrest":1qp0f2yh said:
Agreed! :nod: B&G
The whole problem with "Balancers" is they are not 50:50 F1s. Any percentage of either is apparently acceptable. We started off with Balancers before they were called balancers, but they were all F1 Red Angus X Gelbvieh.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
A 2 breed rotation gives 67% heterosis
3 way cross = 86% heterosis
4 way cross using F1 x F1 gives 75% first generation and then in the 2nd generation and beyond it stabilizes at 67%
making it no better long term than the simple 2 breed rotation plan many use.
IF you have F1 cows purebred 3rd breed is the hands down heterosis winner, not F1 x F1 cross.
crossbred cows are more efficient than straight bred cows and so using a straight bred bull (pb) is much better than
using a F1 or composite bull on unknown crossbred cows.
3 way cross = 86% heterosis
4 way cross using F1 x F1 gives 75% first generation and then in the 2nd generation and beyond it stabilizes at 67%
making it no better long term than the simple 2 breed rotation plan many use.
IF you have F1 cows purebred 3rd breed is the hands down heterosis winner, not F1 x F1 cross.
crossbred cows are more efficient than straight bred cows and so using a straight bred bull (pb) is much better than
using a F1 or composite bull on unknown crossbred cows.
I agree with the comments regarding the value of heterosis (hybrid vigor); especially maternal heterosis. However, it isn't always as simple to implement, especially in larger operations, as the "experts" would lead you to believe it is.
For example, a progressive cattle producer that I know runs 2200 cows. He wanted to maximize heterosis in his herd, and after much research (including reviewing data from MARC) decided approximately 15 years ago to run Angus/Gelbvieh cows and breed them to Charolais bulls. All of the calves would go to the feedlot. His first challenge was finding a reliable single source of Angus/Gelbvieh heifers every year. It wasn't a problem finding enough Angus/Gelbvieh heifers, but the challenge was finding enough of those heifers that fit his Iowa environment. Many of the heifers from the west and north didn't acclimate very well to the humidity, and challenges of tall fescue. He wasn't able to find a reliable source for that many heifers in states with comparable environmental conditions.
So, he decided to maintain a base herd of purebred Angus females to produce his own replacements. Part of the Angus females would be bred to Gelbvieh bulls, from which he would select his replacements for the main herd, and the balance of the Angus cows would be bred to Angus bulls to replenish the Angus herd. On paper this looked great. The problem was that some years he may get 65% bull calves, and not have enough Angus/Gelbvieh and/or Angus base herd replacement heifers.
Another challenge was that he didn't want to breed the first calf Angus/Gelbvieh heifers to Charolais bulls, to avoid calving problems, so these heifers were bred to calving ease Angus bulls. After all of this, he didn't have near as many Charolais sired high-growth calves to ship to the feedlot as he initially envisioned.
After several years of trying to maximize heterosis, he gave up. It was too time consuming trying to ensure that he had enough Angus and Angus/Gelbvieh replacement heifers. It was also a challenge having enough bulls of the right breeds to service the various segments; especially when he had 25+ breeding pastures. Another challenge was making sure that the employees were putting the right bulls with each set of cows and heifers. Eventually he recognized that he didn't have enough time to manage the breeding program as it required, and he transitioned to using hybrid bulls.
Someone posted earlier that one of the disadvantageous of using crossbred bulls is that there would be more variation in the calf crop. In my own experience I have not seen this. I also have not heard this comment from the many, many producers I know that utilize Simangus, Limflex, and Balancer bulls. I am sure that we would see more variability if seedstock producers were breeding 7.5 frame Simmental/Limousin/Gelbvieh bulls to 5 frame Angus/Red Angus cows, but for the most part I see seedstock producers breeding 5.5-6.5 frame bulls to 5.5-6.5 frame cows, resulting in a consistent product.
For example, a progressive cattle producer that I know runs 2200 cows. He wanted to maximize heterosis in his herd, and after much research (including reviewing data from MARC) decided approximately 15 years ago to run Angus/Gelbvieh cows and breed them to Charolais bulls. All of the calves would go to the feedlot. His first challenge was finding a reliable single source of Angus/Gelbvieh heifers every year. It wasn't a problem finding enough Angus/Gelbvieh heifers, but the challenge was finding enough of those heifers that fit his Iowa environment. Many of the heifers from the west and north didn't acclimate very well to the humidity, and challenges of tall fescue. He wasn't able to find a reliable source for that many heifers in states with comparable environmental conditions.
So, he decided to maintain a base herd of purebred Angus females to produce his own replacements. Part of the Angus females would be bred to Gelbvieh bulls, from which he would select his replacements for the main herd, and the balance of the Angus cows would be bred to Angus bulls to replenish the Angus herd. On paper this looked great. The problem was that some years he may get 65% bull calves, and not have enough Angus/Gelbvieh and/or Angus base herd replacement heifers.
Another challenge was that he didn't want to breed the first calf Angus/Gelbvieh heifers to Charolais bulls, to avoid calving problems, so these heifers were bred to calving ease Angus bulls. After all of this, he didn't have near as many Charolais sired high-growth calves to ship to the feedlot as he initially envisioned.
After several years of trying to maximize heterosis, he gave up. It was too time consuming trying to ensure that he had enough Angus and Angus/Gelbvieh replacement heifers. It was also a challenge having enough bulls of the right breeds to service the various segments; especially when he had 25+ breeding pastures. Another challenge was making sure that the employees were putting the right bulls with each set of cows and heifers. Eventually he recognized that he didn't have enough time to manage the breeding program as it required, and he transitioned to using hybrid bulls.
Someone posted earlier that one of the disadvantageous of using crossbred bulls is that there would be more variation in the calf crop. In my own experience I have not seen this. I also have not heard this comment from the many, many producers I know that utilize Simangus, Limflex, and Balancer bulls. I am sure that we would see more variability if seedstock producers were breeding 7.5 frame Simmental/Limousin/Gelbvieh bulls to 5 frame Angus/Red Angus cows, but for the most part I see seedstock producers breeding 5.5-6.5 frame bulls to 5.5-6.5 frame cows, resulting in a consistent product.
