GAR Integrity comments

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MikeC

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Epds are only as good as the people who are fudging the numbers for them.

Would you care to explain how EPD's can be manipulated in the long term?

In short, how would anyone be able to control all the numbers/data turned in on a Bull's progeny, say, if he had 2000-3000 calves per year?

I will concede that some one "Might" fudge the actual numbers/data on a particular calf, but when his progeny data starts coming in it will correct itself.
 

Aero

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exactly right Mike

you can fudge a few, but not even the best politician can coordinate a decent accuracy on a national scale.

in short, if the Acc is low, not many people are going to use a bull so who cares if a few folks are unethical? when Acc hits .75 there are 200-400 calves on the ground and very few can fudge that many much less the 1500+ for a .90
 

DOC HARRIS

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:46 am

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SEC wrote:
This milk number suggests lesser milk production than the average cow so we get down on that. Yet, we know ourselves that the animal raising a good calf and isn't shorting it 's potential one little bit.


not completely correct.

the Milk EPD is a combination of actual milk production and mothering ability. it is a measurement of pounds added to the calf. a cow with less than average milk can add more pounds than the average cow by being a good mother. conversely, a cow with gallons of milk might raise a terrible calf if she wont let him suck.
This Hypothesis is fine - - as far as it goes! BUT, it does not go to the extent that was originally intended.

"MATERNAL MILK EPD (Milk) - is a predictor of a sire's genetic merit for milk and mothering ability as expressed in pounds of calf weaned by his daughters compared to daughters of OTHER SIRES. In other words, it is that part of a calf's weaning weight attributed to milk and mothering ability." (emphasis is mine. Doc Harris)

In my discussions of the values and merits of EPD's, per se, I find that when it is difficult to be in accord with others the reasoning usually is because of equivicating and quibbling over 'presupposed' facts, unsupported by total cognizance of the literal and realistic definition of ALL "EPD's", which after all are "EXPECTED PROGENY DIFFERENCES"

In this particular case of 'Milk' EPD's, IN MY OPINION, most of us have taken a cursory view of EPD's, in our eagerness to achieve perfection in our breeding programs, have leaped to conclusions that they (EPD's) were THE answer to all of our hopes and dreams. With that presumption in mind it became easy to take the "path of least resistance", disconnect our cogitating abilities, and lapse into a fairy-land dream world of breeding beef cattle "by-the-numbers", and STOP thinking about reality - - point in fact - - in concert with PHENOTYPE!

The can be NO repudiation of this statement: There is absolutely NO ONE SINGLE ANSWER to Genetic Perfection!

WHY!?? Because PERFECTION is in the eye of the beholder. If perfection could be achieved, easily or not, ONE Bull and ONE Cow could produce ALL of the progeny in the Beef Industry, and we could all retire and cease struggling and arguing.

We need to get real here, Folks! Using EPD's in conjunction with Phenotype and our good common Horse (if you'll excuse the expression) sense, is tantamount to a Championship Chess Game - it takes knowledge, intuition, and more good fortune than anyone possesses just to make a step forward in our breeding programs - but it CAN be done - as many good breeder's have proven. But KNOWLEDGE is paramount in the mix and we can never stop learning if we care to advance!

DOC HARRIS
 

SEC

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I knew you were going to put a paragraph together that would blow apart my penmanship. HA HA!

I know what you are saying DOC, you have many good points. I hope that the theory of EPD's is the right thing, put there are times when I question them. I don't use EPD's as the first sort on selecting replacement cattle whether buying or retaining from my herd. It's about 3rd on the list at our place and when buying cattle there are a few more in front of it.

Here is another angle to what I was saying. I will use my own herdbull as the example.

His PE Milk EPD was +4, his mother had a weaning ratio of 7 at 106 and his sire, Super X 745 actually brought his milk EPD up. For whatever reason in the background and I have checked as far as the internet will let me all the cows have been around 0 for milk. The MGGS is New Trend 315 and his daughter shows a milk EPD of -8. Anyways it seems next to impossible to bring the EPD up. Despite the 7 @ 106 weaning ration her milk doesn't go up. A maternal brother to our bull started out with a 4 for milk and ended up at 10. We will calve our first daughters out this spring and we will find out whether or not this number is correct. I can't imagine them not milking as well because they have that cow look to them and look awful good.


So if we don't give these kinds of bulls chances to breed a set of Purebred cows we might be missing out on the greatset thing yet. This is the ironic part of numbers and how fickle people are.
Nobody will give a bull will less than ideal numbers a chance because of their numbers alone. His milk might end up being a 10 when he gets a number of daughters milking he might not. But if they out index all the other dams you can be sure if their milk numbers are higher that his will change very little and the cows that get out done at weaning their numbers will fall.

Not all poor numbered cattle work out but they aren't all bad either. So due to being fashionable, cattle with better phenotype with good genotype potential get overlooked because it would be less than popular to use that kind of a bull. Meanwhile there might be a set of calves come out of him that would blow the doors off of Integrity and all the other hot sires.
 

blacksnake

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I purchased a Future Direction heifer that was bred to Integrity. This was when he was the up and coming thing. I was hoping for a really good calf to keep either as a replacement heifer or as herd sire. I was very disappointed. It was the worst performing calf I've raised. I had a calf by Predestined and he was so much better. Has anyone else used Predestined. His numbers look pretty good and based on my one calf observation, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten more use and publicity.
 

Aero

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blacksnake:

i also have an integrity heifer out of a FD daughter and she has average performance. i think this might be optimal for replacements. i will let you know in 5 yrs. :D
 

Hill Creek Farm

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blacksnake":v7h0rzm0 said:
I purchased a Future Direction heifer that was bred to Integrity. This was when he was the up and coming thing. I was hoping for a really good calf to keep either as a replacement heifer or as herd sire. I was very disappointed. It was the worst performing calf I've raised. I had a calf by Predestined and he was so much better. Has anyone else used Predestined. His numbers look pretty good and based on my one calf observation, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten more use and publicity.
I have seen both the bull and calves and I was impressed. Very thick made bull and the calves, well, I will describe them as meat wagons. :cboy:
 

Hill Creek Farm

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Aero":tu0tdz1b said:
blacksnake:

i also have an integrity heifer out of a FD daughter and she has average performance. i think this might be optimal for replacements. i will let you know in 5 yrs. :D
If I were an Angus breeder, I wouldn't use the bull if someone gave me the semen on him. The most awful Angus bull I have ever seen before. Only seen him in the pictures, but loks very sway backed and not enough frame and not depth. Very unbalanced and looks like he is standing on toothpicks for legs. :cboy:
 

SEC

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We are thankful everyday you're not an Angus breeder!

You are reading the bull from the wrong angle putting him down with his toothpick legs. What else could he have, his pedigree doesn't allow him to have more. That breeding would have a hard time producing "stout" muscular cattle. THey are calving ease cattle!
 

Hill Creek Farm

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SEC":k0g53fdk said:
We are thankful everyday you're not an Angus breeder!

You are reading the bull from the wrong angle putting him down with his toothpick legs. What else could he have, his pedigree doesn't allow him to have more. That breeding would have a hard time producing "stout" muscular cattle. THey are calving ease cattle!
Still, who wants a flat muscled calf and besides, no one sounds like to me that they have had any luck with him. I think if I had him, I would put him on the back forty and never let know one know that I owned a bull that looked like that. He should have been banded as a calf. And listen, EPDs aren't everything but marketing tools. Doesn't show anything until the daughters start producing and bulls start breding cows. So, Intergrity is at the way botton of my Angus list, dead last. Predestined and Girdmaker and Retail Product are my favorites. Also, that 878 bull is another favorite of mine. I am glad I am not in the Angus breed either. :cboy:
 

SEC

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Don't get me wrong, i don't like the bull either. Pedigree alone for me.
As you know calving ease cattle are often slighter made cattle. Seldom do we run across calving ease bulls that will add a little muscle shape.

878 cattle are flatter made cattle but they profile wonderful, I don't care for him either as he is a New Design.
 
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farmerD44

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SEC":dlezxees said:
My feelings on Gridmaker...............................

If I was a Chianina breeder i would be proud!

The cattle are lots better than he is, thankfully. I like their growth, structure, hair.

I hair their attitude and what their sire looks like. The fact that there are animals that look like that back in an animals pedigree makes me fear the chance of it showing up again.

This may seem a little narrow minded but why allow for genetics that aren't right in my herd. This allows for a better chance of it revealing itself again down the line.

I like the "pure"genetics and if ( undoubtedly will happen) the same lines get crossed again, we might be terrified with the freaks that might appear!

So what u are saying is that u like the look of his calves u have seen but u don't think he is really "purebred"????? And they have disposition problems????
 

SEC

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Sure!

No, I hate the look of the bull......enough said.

I haven't minded how his calves are made through their structure and makeup, they haven't given me a reason to hate them, besides pedigree.

There are many who think the Gridmaker looks like a CHI in his picture. I have no doubt his pedigree is what it is. I think there are a few bulls in his background that contribute to his different look and I know if you double those bulls up there are some funky things that come out of it. I am not talking about the Precision 1680 for once either.

When I said "pure" it's a term that few people use and has to do with the genetic makeup, not questioning breeder integrity!
 
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farmerD44

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SEC":16y8wr6k said:
Sure!

No, I hate the look of the bull......enough said.

I haven't minded how his calves are made through their structure and makeup, they haven't given me a reason to hate them, besides pedigree.

There are many who think the Gridmaker looks like a CHI in his picture. I have no doubt his pedigree is what it is. I think there are a few bulls in his background that contribute to his different look and I know if you double those bulls up there are some funky things that come out of it. I am not talking about the Precision 1680 for once either.

When I said "pure" it's a term that few people use and has to do with the genetic makeup, not questioning breeder integrity!

Ok- sorry for the misunderstanding. ;-)
 

Hill Creek Farm

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SEC":tpjglvyi said:
Sure!

No, I hate the look of the bull......enough said.

I haven't minded how his calves are made through their structure and makeup, they haven't given me a reason to hate them, besides pedigree.

There are many who think the Gridmaker looks like a CHI in his picture. I have no doubt his pedigree is what it is. I think there are a few bulls in his background that contribute to his different look and I know if you double those bulls up there are some funky things that come out of it. I am not talking about the Precision 1680 for once either.

When I said "pure" it's a term that few people use and has to do with the genetic makeup, not questioning breeder integrity!
I am a big fan of Gridmaker and believe that he is 100% to the core, Black Angus.
 

SEC

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I am making a donation to the blind, can'you not read?

I know he is 100% black angus. I don't believe his phenotype exhibits Angus characteristics as much as maybe Chi.

I am going for stitches, my head is bleeding from banging it to hard.
 

KMacGinley

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MikeC":34fl87tj said:
Epds are only as good as the people who are fudging the numbers for them.

Would you care to explain how EPD's can be manipulated in the long term?

In short, how would anyone be able to control all the numbers/data turned in on a Bull's progeny, say, if he had 2000-3000 calves per year?

I will concede that some one "Might" fudge the actual numbers/data on a particular calf, but when his progeny data starts coming in it will correct itself.

I don't believe that you need to fudge the numbers for the long term to achieve the goals that most major breeders are after.
It takes 10 to make a contemporary group. So you put 9 poor doers in a pasture (or not) with your hot target, next years phenom calf and turn in the numbers. Your calf is the newest single trait selection pedigree that everyone is clamoring for. You get the big numbers, you buy a 4 color full page ad for each month, get a slick air brushed picture and price the semen at $25+ a straw and start filling the orders of the legion of the gullible. Sell 5-10 thousand straws and you got a year before the real numbers come in, (if there is such a thing as real numbers) Next year you have your new hot yearling bull out when everyone figures out that the emperer is not wearing any clothes. No one ever hears about old "perfection" anymore and you don't care because you have a new boy out there. :)
 

W.B.

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I don't know all that much about Integrity but that he is used more for his ability to sire phenotype more than his performance.


Based on my personal experience I wouldn't judge them too harshly yet. I had some 6I6 calves in 2004 and I didn't feel that they grew as good as I would have liked but the daughters that I kept all bred on the first cycle AI and they are easy keepers with perfect udders and are going to wean some awesome calves. FWIW I bred them to a Hereford bull to get some Hybrid vigor to increase my performance in the calves.
 

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