GAR Angus - comparisons

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lms0229

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So I have 3 GAR bulls that I’m wanting to compare. GAR Momentum, Prophet and Sure Fire. I’m hearing that Sure Fire lacks chest and mid-rib depth and that Prophet throws bigger calves than expected...so out of the 3 bulls who is passing on chest depth and mid-rib to their offspring? What have the birthweights been from the bulls you have used? Any other insights and opinions on these bulls are welcomed. Thanks!
 

wbvs58

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I have used Prophet, yes I found his calves a bit bigger than expected but not over the top. I found his calves grew very well, some phenominal weaning weights, they seem to be able to use their mothers milk well but they come back to the pack after weaning and I would rate them as hard doers. I have a few of his daughters and I think they are good cows, a bit hard doing until they get a bit of age on them but still rear a great calf and no problem breeding back.

Ken
 
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lms0229

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T & B farms said:
Are you dead set on ruining your phenotype, foot quality, fertility, and fleshing ability?

I don’t remember their feet being rated bad, are they? I know they are not the fleshier of the Angus breed but I thought with proper pairings they could be a good match for some. Can you be more specific with the phenotype flaws? Thank you
 
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lms0229

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wbvs58 said:
I have used Prophet, yes I found his calves a bit bigger than expected but not over the top. I found his calves grew very well, some phenominal weaning weights, they seem to be able to use their mothers milk well but they come back to the pack after weaning and I would rate them as hard doers. I have a few of his daughters and I think they are good cows, a bit hard doing until they get a bit of age on them but still rear a great calf and no problem breeding back.

Ken

Thanks Ken! What BWs were you seeing on the Prophet calves? I could see them being harder doers with the higher milk outputs. Your thoughts on phenotype?
 
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lms0229

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frieghttrain said:
Just that I wouldn't want any Gar bull for keeping replacements. But if I had to out of those three it'd be Prophet.

Why wouldn’t you keep any for replacements? What do you not like about them? Thanks
 

T & B farms

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Give us some back ground on your operation. Do you have registered stock? If they are commercial, how are you marketing them? Feeding them to slaughter and selling them on the grid? Or just hauling them to the sale barn? Keeping back heifers?


I have a breeder with Gar genetics near me. I drive by them every day. They are just flat ugly to my eye. The performance is great as long as they have their face in a feed bunk.
 
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lms0229

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T & B farms said:
Give us some back ground on your operation. Do you have registered stock? If they are commercial, how are you marketing them? Feeding them to slaughter and selling them on the grid? Or just hauling them to the sale barn? Keeping back heifers?


I have a breeder with Gar genetics near me. I drive by them every day. They are just flat ugly to my eye. The performance is great as long as they have their face in a feed bunk.


I don’t have registered stock so I’m not worried there. I am feeding them out and selling the meat. I wouldn’t mind keeping some of the genetics if they turned out good because of the potential carcass quality. I like short and wide cattle personally so I’m not worried about Momentum’s stature being on the shorter side. I like good leg structure though. I like more the petite bone with ample muscling. I will add a picture of one of my 4 1/2 month old heifer calves to give an idea of what I’m talking about if that helps. Wouldn’t mind her having a little more flesh though. Haha

 

wbvs58

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lms0229 said:
wbvs58 said:
I have used Prophet, yes I found his calves a bit bigger than expected but not over the top. I found his calves grew very well, some phenominal weaning weights, they seem to be able to use their mothers milk well but they come back to the pack after weaning and I would rate them as hard doers. I have a few of his daughters and I think they are good cows, a bit hard doing until they get a bit of age on them but still rear a great calf and no problem breeding back.

Ken

Thanks Ken! What BWs were you seeing on the Prophet calves? I could see them being harder doers with the higher milk outputs. Your thoughts on phenotype?
Just looking back at the records and the BW were not too bad, ranging from 37kg to 45kg (100lb), I think what put in the back of my mind the BW was I had a couple of heifers with calves over 40kg but I was getting heavy calves from a lot of my heifers in those years, I had some heifers with Black Pearl calves around the 45 kg mark as well.
Phenotype they have plenty of length and depth, the bulls had a lot of size to them and always sold well getting my best prices and had feedback from buyers that they are very pleased with the progeny. The cows as I mentioned start to look good as they mature when they get to keep a bit more weight on, big strong cows. I have been crossing them back to thicker bulls like SAV Renown, EF Commando and this year SAV Rainmaster and getting some nice calves.

Ken
 
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lms0229

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wbvs58 said:
lms0229 said:
wbvs58 said:
I have used Prophet, yes I found his calves a bit bigger than expected but not over the top. I found his calves grew very well, some phenominal weaning weights, they seem to be able to use their mothers milk well but they come back to the pack after weaning and I would rate them as hard doers. I have a few of his daughters and I think they are good cows, a bit hard doing until they get a bit of age on them but still rear a great calf and no problem breeding back.

Ken

Thanks Ken! What BWs were you seeing on the Prophet calves? I could see them being harder doers with the higher milk outputs. Your thoughts on phenotype?
Just looking back at the records and the BW were not too bad, ranging from 37kg to 45kg (100lb), I think what put in the back of my mind the BW was I had a couple of heifers with calves over 40kg but I was getting heavy calves from a lot of my heifers in those years, I had some heifers with Black Pearl calves around the 45 kg mark as well.
Phenotype they have plenty of length and depth, the bulls had a lot of size to them and always sold well getting my best prices and had feedback from buyers that they are very pleased with the progeny. The cows as I mentioned start to look good as they mature when they get to keep a bit more weight on, big strong cows. I have been crossing them back to thicker bulls like SAV Renown, EF Commando and this year SAV Rainmaster and getting some nice calves.

Ken

Thanks Ken for the insight! How was the feet and legs on his calves in your opinion?
 
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lms0229

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wbvs58 said:
I had no problem with feet or legs, everyone will tell you he throws a lot of white but I haven't found it to be excessive.

Ken

The white doesn’t bother me but the feet and legs are! Glad to know he was good there. Thank you for all your help Ken!
 

Cdcollett

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Prophet is a proven Bull so I’d actually trust the numbers here & this is what they tell me.
No real foot issues, tons of marbling & a lot of growth. He has good calving ease but shouldn’t throw the little dinks some super low birthweight calving ease bulls do. To me, a different phenotype & I wonder if the females tend to be more scopey or tubular. That along with the growth and milk would tend to make them hard doing. Below average heifer pregnancy and scrotal as well so he’s primarily a terminal Bull.

If you plan on keeping them I’d go with Sure Fire because he may have less growth but it’s still plenty and the fertility indicators are better.

Momentum has basically been used to create more marbling but otherwise the other choices would be better.
 

frieghttrain

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lms0229 said:
frieghttrain said:
Just that I wouldn't want any Gar bull for keeping replacements. But if I had to out of those three it'd be Prophet.

Why wouldn’t you keep any for replacements? What do you not like about them? Thanks
For reasons already stated. Good cattle for feeding out. Harder doing animals, if you want muscle they're not gonna add it.
 
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lms0229

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Really appreciate the detailed answers everyone! Definitely some things to consider for my breeding plan going forward. May change some things up now that I have better insight!
 

polledbull

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Gardner is in the feedlot business, they breed cattle to excel in the feed yard, they will tend to be a little flat sided and hard doers out in the pasture situation ,
 

Lucky_P

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what polledbull said... GAR has been selecting for, and 'stacking' carcass trait epds since... at least back in the 1980s... I've got articles in my files on their breeding strategies from as far back as 1985 or so.
They may not be 'pretty', and may not be best for grass-based beef production, but that's not particularly what they were bred to be.
 

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