Full Genetic Potential

[JustSimmental]

I like this sort of post about the seedstock producer, because I am one of them. In an article, recently (Dec/Jan) of The Register (Simmental) there is a small chart called Across Breed EPD's "Look before you Leap". This link will sum it up fairly well, but to further explain it:
Our Angus breeders are representing their cattle by using indices from 1974 (this falsely inflates the EPD's, because there has been a lot of Genetic change since 1974! Check it out:
http://www.edrsimmental.com/across-breed-epds.php

As far as show cattle go: Not many show ponies ever make it in a Production Unit. I don't know a single production unit that cares about their cows hair length; do you? I hope this chart helps.

Here is a pet peeve of mine against seedstock producers.... Here is how the add will usually read in the catalog or announced at the purebred show....Lol yes I do attend a few, as hard as that is for some of you to believe..." These animals have only been fed enough to reach their genetic potential," Shouldnt that really read these animals have only been fed enough to reach their maxium size....You now take this animal home and its up to you to maintain this maxium size!

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Our Angus breeders are representing their cattle by using indices from 1974 (this falsely inflates the EPD's, because there has been a lot of Genetic change since 1974! Check it out:
http://www.edrsimmental.com/across-breed-epds.php

Has been a complaint of mine for a very long time!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Wouldn't their progeny be reported by the people leasing them? Or are they only able to be used on crosses?[/quote]


The deal is they make you sign a contract that says you cannot sell ANY crossbred bulls out of their bulls. So if you bought one from them and bred it to an Angus cow and wanted to sell him intact they WILL sue you.

Well - - I have been tempted to comment about the Irish Blacks in a VERY positive manner for several years, and circumstances have been such that I just have not jumped in with both feet. But - here goes.

3waycross is correct in this assertion! I am well acquainted with the Irish Blacks developer, and he has a "copyright" patent on his breeding program, and as a result, that protocol has precluded the extended popularity and breed development of the Irish Blacks (and Reds) in the beef industry! I have had extensive 'discussions(!!)' with the developer in regard to his strict and resolute approach to marketing his terrific breed of cattle - to absolutely NO avail. The man is very elderly (even older than I am!), a World War II Air Corps hero, a brilliant seedstock developer with ingenious ideas and a determined agenda that, IN MY OPINION, if he could be convinced to release his genetics to the beef breeding community on a sensible, pragmatic and logical basis, it would set the Beef Cattle Genetic breeding package on FIRE But, I am afraid that is not in the cards - yet! Whatever may occur in the future - remains in the future!

But I can testify to the fact that the retail meat counter product that the Irish Blacks produce is as beautiful and delicious a beef eating experience as one could desire. I have watched and photographed a butcher prepare cuts from an Irish Blacks carcass, and eaten same, that was absolutely optimal and quintessential, and I assisted Eric Grant in the development of the IB webpage, therefore I feel as if I can speak with some authority FOR the breed!

I would encourage anyone who is interested in furthering their knowledge of the Irish Blacks breed to log onto the websight.

www.irishblacks.com

My opinion is - what a smashing addition to the crossbreeding protocols this breed could contribute!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

I agree Doc but the way Maurice has it structered it precludes developing any kind of market for those cattle. I have seen another outfit selling those genetics but I am not sure if the caveats still apply or not. The fact that they have no epd's and only they know which bulls are calving ease makes it hard to use them. I also have some concerns about feet and temperment with the IB's. But since I can't use them to make balancers I am not gonna worry about it.

 

[Lon]

Wouldn't their progeny be reported by the people leasing them? Or are they only able to be used on crosses?[/quote]


The deal is they make you sign a contract that says you cannot sell ANY crossbred bulls out of their bulls. So if you bought one from them and bred it to an Angus cow and wanted to sell him intact they WILL sue you.

why would he do this? i would think if he really wanted to promote his breed because he believes the tremendouse qualities it can bring to the beef industry he would want to make it easier for people to use them not make it so people dont even want to deal with the hassle

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Wouldn't their progeny be reported by the people leasing them? Or are they only able to be used on crosses?[/quote]


The deal is they make you sign a contract that says you cannot sell ANY crossbred bulls out of their bulls. So if you bought one from them and bred it to an Angus cow and wanted to sell him intact they WILL sue you.

why would he do this? i would think if he really wanted to promote his breed because he believes the tremendouse qualities it can bring to the beef industry he would want to make it easier for people to use them not make it so people dont even want to deal with the hassle

Lon-

Go to the link that I provided and read ALL of it. Access the upper Subject boxes, particularly TRADEMARKED. He will tell you why.

http://www.irishblacks.com

DOC HARRIS

 

[backhoeboogie]

Lon-

Go to the link that I provided and read ALL of it. Access the upper Subject boxes, particularly TRADEMARKED. He will tell you why.

http://www.irishblacks.com

DOC HARRIS

DOC,

I admire what he is trying to do. They're his and he has the right to do so. Got the legal trademark too.

What I cannot comprehend is the absolute guarantee than no other blood has entered. Not unless there are no other herds within miles. I cannot keep my neighbor's bull out of my pastures. Electric has not worked. He'll jump 54 inch gates over cattleguards. Another neighbor shot his previous bull. Now he's got another bull with the same issues. The bull will circle two miles through two other's neighbor's places to get into a pasture.

Anyway, I don't comprehend the absolute closed herd based on my experiences through the years. Not one tree down across one fence since 1971? No storms, no rogue bulls? Does he have 8 foot pipe fences surround the entire properties?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I am as aware of all the possibilities of 'wonderment' in this situation as anyone! The entire situation had been baffling to the maximum!

Insofar as the "Purity" of the seedstock is concerned, they have utilized DNA marking for a long, long time - and the ancestry of the animals can be verified! Any variance from their goals, target points, and Genetic destinations would be eradicated and discarded immediately. Mr. Boney has been as "Ruthless" as Tom Laseter was with his beginning Beefmasters! And I can testify to his stubbornness! First hand!

I can say this: There is an extreme and boundless amount of activity - right NOW - as we speak and write - being inacted concerning the future of the Irish Blacks breed that will possibly turn the development of the breed upside down! I am not privy to all of the particulars as yet, but I was informed after I wrote the posts on this thread last night that things were "in the works", and that it involved some very prominent beef cattle personalities and some eye-popping nunbers of cattle!

That is actually all that I am permitted to say about the matter at this time. But to me, it is all very interestaing, exciting and a long time overdue!

DOC HARRIS

 

[backhoeboogie]

DOC, If they are truly verifying with DNA, there is no issue. This method is the most absolute you can get. Most breeders are not doing that (that I am aware of)

 

[Jovid]

DOC, If they are truly verifying with DNA, there is no issue. This method is the most absolute you can get. Most breeders are not doing that (that I am aware of)

In order to verify "purity" they would have had to collect DNA samples on EVERY bull and cow so they can confirm parentage not if animal is a fullblood or in this situation a composite.

At this time there is no way test to confirm the genetic make up of a breed.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

If doubt exists in your minds - - discuss it with them. I can't verify the facts as they have been told to me, as I was not there!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

DOC, If they are truly verifying with DNA, there is no issue. This method is the most absolute you can get. Most breeders are not doing that (that I am aware of)

In order to verify "purity" they would have had to collect DNA samples on EVERY bull and cow so they can confirm parentage not if animal is a fullblood or in this situation a composite.

At this time there is no way test to confirm the genetic make up of a breed.

For the record. I have walked among this cowherd and pens of their bulls. They are extremely impressive cattle. I especially like the reds. I would cross them with GV's in a heartbeat but the agreement prevents me from messing with them. I wish I still had a couple of the pictures of the reds that I deleted a month ago. They literally knocked my socks off.

 

[hillbillycwo]

So because of his trademark on this breed every calf sired is terminal and must be slaughtered? Meaning you can't keep any heifers for replacements?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

This has been quite a thread. Just "catching up". I "assume" this was started over me - but I may be wrong.
I don't creep feed calves. Creep feed is an awesome tool, DEPENDING on the environment & circumstances. If you have heavy milking cows with lush grasses, creep feeding can really muddy up your management decisions. The more a calf eats, the less milk the cow NEEDS to produce.
In our managment, calving on hay feeding times, our newborns have a hard time draining mom's bag. By the time we turn out on grass, they have been pumping her out and are ready for the lush grasses. Yes, the calves do eat hay - but just never consume as much as they do grass (assumption on my part - no facts).
I totally agree with getting the calf started on feed prior to weaning. I've never been in the position to be able to do that, until just last month. We have 5 fall calves & hubby got 4-500# of free oats. Calves had a fenced off loafing area, so we put out the oats for the calves. They gobbled them up once they figured out what they were. Weaned calves about 1 week after they were eating good. What a difference in the condition of the calf. (used the last of the oats to blend with whole shell corn)
If you are going to keep your calves to finish, I would think it would be profitable to creep them. But, I wouldn't think it would be as cost affective for replacement heifers or bulls. Maybe, but you would need to monitor their condition and not let them get fat. The benefits/losses of creep feeding can be so different for all different environments.
Whatever each producer decides to do - bottom line - IS THE BOTTOM LINE. It has to pencil out to a profit.
In my situation, I think my calves reach "enough" of their "full genetic potential" at weaning with mom's milk & great pastures.

 

[3waycross]

So because of his trademark on this breed every calf sired is terminal and must be slaughtered? Meaning you can't keep any heifers for replacements?

You can keep all the heifers you want. You just can't sell 1/2 blood bulls for breeding purposes. He owns the registry.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

So because of his trademark on this breed every calf sired is terminal and must be slaughtered? Meaning you can't keep any heifers for replacements?

hillbillycwo-

No, it does NOT mean that! Go back and read the website carefully. If you think about it - how do you imagine the breed would continue if there were no replacement females retained??

DOC HARRIS