From Drovers: Does AI cost or pay

[robertwhite]

I never really kept any "performance records" on my wife's AI'ing but I'd guess she was 90% bred on first service at least on the whole herd year in and year out. We did some synching but bred mostly on observed heat and calved year round. These were on lactating dairy cattle too under much more stress than typical beef cattle. A 60% rate is hardly worth the effort and expense.

That's what has me questioning the process. If I don't get results of at least say 80%, it is in no way worth it in my mind. I can run a bull year round and theoretically get 100% (100% this go around) and all I have to do is feed him.

Another question I have would be, if a bull is used after AI to "clean up", how doe one know if the AI or the bull was the successor? I mean, we can count days and months, but just as with women, it is certainly not an exact science as they can be early or late in giving birth.

 

[angus9259]

It's higher then 60% if you don;t sync and don;t TAI. AI on observed heats and a decent tech will be at 80 of higher.

Cost - personal and tech - goes up though - having them come out for each individual heat - PLUS you have to actually see the heat. That's the frustrating part is the cows that come in and out of heat and they're never mounted.

 

[dun]

Another question I have would be, if a bull is used after AI to "clean up", how doe one know if the AI or the bull was the successor? I mean, we can count days and months, but just as with women, it is certainly not an exact science as they can be early or late in giving birth.

The majority of the time you can tell by when they calve. But we cheated. On the cows that we AIed to a Red Angus we didn;t use a lcean up bull. Our clean up bulls are Red Angus. The ones we were going to run with a clean up bull we bred to Hereford or a homozygous black bull. This year we AIed one Red Angus cow to a Red Angus bull and turned her in with the bull (he son) 3 weeks later. When we palped this year the breedgin date that he came up with was half way between the AI date and the turn in date. So if she has a calf that is worth cosidering for a breeding animal we will do a DNA test to determine who the sire is.

 

[cow pollinater]

A few points:
1. The original article only calculates the first generation of calves. The real benefits of a good AI program last for generations as you wind up with high quality DAUGHTERS that then get bred back to good bulls so that the resulting calves have two high quality genetic inputs instead of one.
2. Don't get stuck on conception rate. Breeding 100% of your cows on day one at 50% conception beets the crap out of breeding the 60% that you're able to catch in heat at 60% conception... A good rule of thumb, if in doubt, BREED HER.
3. Hooknline, you're getting screwed. At $100 plus semen I'd just about fly to you and breed them myself and call it a paid for vacation.
4. robertwhite, you're assuming that a bull sticks every cow that he breeds every time. A straw of proffesionally packaged semen placed properly into a cow actually puts MORE viable semen where it needs to be than a bull does. I can get 100% of your cows bred as well if you're willing to give me the same amount of time that you run your bulls. And for the same cost of feeding your bull you can run another cow that will actually turn a profit.
5. Regolith, you're doing great. Don't be scared to send those bulls to beef and go all AI! I have a customer with nine thousand milking jerseys and we're at 95% AI. The only reason for us to run bulls is that the milkers mix them up every now and then and sometimes good cows will abort. Just pay close attention to DPR (daughter pregnancy rate) and make sure you cull hard on hard breeders.

 

[Anonymous]

Cp. i didnt say i paid that. Never have done ai because of the cost. But the genex rep figured the cost. And that was to sync and ai.
No one else around here that i know of does ai. They all run bulls. Most likely for the same raeasons as myself. I dont hlget that tho because Fl is a huge producer of calfs to be sent west to lots.

 

[regolith]

hey cp, the bulls give me time off. That's it in a nutshell - I'm sure all AI would be cheaper.
And you can't delegate heat detection and AI to staff... but you sure can delegate it to a male bovine.
Last time I did synch and timed AI I think I got 25 - 30% pregnant on the synched heat and the technician who did them pulled the wrong bull out of the vat... did 22 cows to the wrong bull. At least if I make a mistake on my own cows I wear that mistake, never done anything that bad.

 

[HOSS]

I do my own A.I. so that helps keep cost down. I A.I. my top 10 or 12 cows to high quality bulls that I could never afford to buy otherwise. CP hit on it some. The payback is in the quality improvement over a run of the mill bull. It lasts for generations. I let my bull get what I miss on the A.I. and he covers the rest of the cows that I am not A.I.'ing. I am on my second generation of A.I.'d cows. Meaning the I have bred the heifers created from my first A.I. endeavor. By doing this I am compounding the quality angle. Another pay-off with A.I. is that I run a higher performance bull for live cover and strictly breed the heifers by A.I. with low BW (high accuracy) bulls. I pick up the extra pounds from the live cover that I would not risk on the heifers. If my heifers don't take the first time they get A.I.'d again and do not get covered by my bull. It has been working out well for me.

 

[novatech]

I do my own A.I. so that helps keep cost down. I A.I. my top 10 or 12 cows to high quality bulls that I could never afford to buy otherwise. CP hit on it some. The payback is in the quality improvement over a run of the mill bull. It lasts for generations. I let my bull get what I miss on the A.I. and he covers the rest of the cows that I am not A.I.'ing. I am on my second generation of A.I.'d cows. Meaning the I have bred the heifers created from my first A.I. endeavor. By doing this I am compounding the quality angle. Another pay-off with A.I. is that I run a higher performance bull for live cover and strictly breed the heifers by A.I. with low BW (high accuracy) bulls. I pick up the extra pounds from the live cover that I would not risk on the heifers. If my heifers don't take the first time they get A.I.'d again and do not get covered by my bull. It has been working out well for me.

In South America many of the large ranches AI commercial cattle. A fair percentage of the attendees at the Bovine Elite AI class are from South America. I have talked with several of them and they tell me the the value received for the calves more than justifies the AI over natural. This is for terminal calves not only replacements. So if we are not keeping up with a third world country what does it say about our mentality?
The value received on replacement heifers improvement more than out weighs missing 40% the first go round.
It is getting harder to make money in the cattle business. Anybody wishing to stay in the business need to take advantage of every tool in the box. AI should be one of the tools at the top of the box along with EPD's.
What amazes me is that both AI and the use of EPD's have been proven for their economic value for such a long time now that I consider it old school. DNA markers are what are relatively new and even they are receiving a lot of resistance, even though they have already been proven to add value.
In my book anyone serious about being in the cattle business should have already taken an AI course wither they will use it themselves or not.
In my book the use of AI should be as common place as feeding hay.

 

[novatech]

Dun, If your take rate on the first go round is 80% what do you think it is for the other 20% if you hit them a second time?

 

[dun]

Dun, If your take rate on the first go round is 80% what do you think it is for the other 20% if you hit them a second time?

Most of the time it's 100%. The ones that don;t settle with the second attempt either go to the bull or the salebarn. We had 2 this year that after AI ran with the bull for 2 months and still came up open. Until just a couple of years ago we did 100% AI, no bulls allowed. We culled for those twice at most breeders and got to the point they all settled AI. Since we've been using a bull for cleanup some of those we've retained since have started getting slower to breed back. In August we shipped to trailer loads with calves that were slow breeders. The ones we retained all settled eithre to the AI date or 1 heat later.
My own opinion is that some cows are just a little too nervous (not relaxed enough) to settle AI.

 

[novatech]

Dun, If your take rate on the first go round is 80% what do you think it is for the other 20% if you hit them a second time?

Most of the time it's 100%. The ones that don;t settle with the second attempt either go to the bull or the salebarn. We had 2 this year that after AI ran with the bull for 2 months and still came up open. Until just a couple of years ago we did 100% AI, no bulls allowed. We culled for those twice at most breeders and got to the point they all settled AI. Since we've been using a bull for cleanup some of those we've retained since have started getting slower to breed back. In August we shipped to trailer loads with calves that were slow breeders. The ones we retained all settled eithre to the AI date or 1 heat later.

What I gather from this is by using Exclusive AI it has caused an increase in overall herd fertility, which is, IMO, the #1 trit for cattle selection.

My own opinion is that some cows are just a little too nervous (not relaxed enough) to settle AI.

I have to agree, especially with Brahman.

 

[regolith]

What I gather from this is by using Exclusive AI it has caused an increase in overall herd fertility, which is, IMO, the #1 trit for cattle selection.

I got that impression too, and it improved my understanding of cow pollinator's advice earlier.

The day before you posted that question I had updated four weeks worth of matings into the cow database I'm using, which I had last done 15 November, and checked the 'non-return' percentages. They had not moved one iota... so in my motley herd that gets 6 wks AI, 6 weeks bull most years there was no observable difference between first service and second service in conception rate.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I tried the glue on patchs and the one shot heat sync approach this year. The tech liked that we were breeding on observed heats but would not commit to a percentage.
Have you seen any data on this method?

 

[Mid South Guy]

I tried the glue on patchs and the one shot heat sync approach this year. The tech liked that we were breeding on observed heats but would not commit to a percentage.
Have you seen any data on this method?

This is the way I did it back in the 70's & 80's when I AI'ed a lot. Accurate observation of standing heat and stress free handling, along with good technique, is the key to good results. We used a 1/2 Jersey X 1/2 Angus teaser bull for heat detection, bred cows for 7 days, gave 1 shot, bred cows on observed heats, and would get 80-85% settled on first service. IMO there are just some cows for whatever reason that will not settle to AI but do fine with natural service just as I have seen some bulls whose semen will not freeze sucessfully but will do fine breeding cows naturally. This is why I would worry myself to death by relying on 100% AI. I know some people do just fine that way, but I want a cleanup bull in there.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I would take a cup of coffee out and watch the sun rise over the pasture, and take out a beer and watch the sun set over the pasture - - but some patches showed heat even though I never saw them stand. Maybe I should have brought a 6 pack?

I used a half bucket of grain to get them to run into the corral. Then if the patch color had totally changed by that morning I gave the techa call and we bred them in early afternoon. Can A guy do any better when using with an AI tech who only drive by once a day?

 

[Jake]

I was always taught that natural service is only around 60-65% on the first heat cycle. Doesn't take much to beat that AIing. I more or less taught myself how to do it and was able to get just under 75% settled. The biggest issue with AI for us is the time it consumes.

 

[dcara]

Which is more cost effective (AI vs. Natural Service (NS)) I think depends on your operation including management style and size of operation. My experience has been an 80% AI conception rate (100% with clean up bull) vs. 100% for straight NS. Calving period for AI vs. NS was 30 (AI) vs. 60 (NS). I don't consider this difference a problem. Neither do I think it has any significant economic impact. My total AI cost by probably the best AI Tech in the area is almost $100/cow which includes CIDARs and all supplies, labor, semen, semen storage, dry loting cows and calves at his place after CIDARS are pulled (since he lives next store to me). Semen is about $20 per cow. All I do is march them over there and sort out the ones I want AI'd.

For NS, I rotate my bull (from one of my previous AI cows) to different cattle groups until he is 3-4 yrs old and then sell him at which point he pays for all his previous feed, health workups, AI cost, etc. plus a little extra which means that his breeding service cost me nothing per cow for the 2- to 2.5 yrs he was the herd sire.

For me NS is more cost effective and I only use AI to keep bringing in new genetics via a few new daughters from certain cows, and also to develop new herd sires to deliver some of the new genetics to the rest of the herd

 

[novatech]

nah hook, bulls and AI are doing the same thing. It's like Dun says, you get the higher conception rates breeding to natural and observed heats. Which is what I'm doing. If the bulls were doing better than me, I'd think I had a problem.
I'm pretty sure the bulls do better on my non-cycling cows than 'gnrh, prostaglandin and timed AI'. Which is why I chucked the non-cyclers out with bulls this year and didn't inject them with anything. I'm still learning - and interested in exploring the idea that home grown bulls might have better fertility than the ones that come off a truck.

I think you may have some terminology mixed up. Nothing is going to breed a non-cycling cow. The bull just may know better when they are cycling, and the cow lets the bull bred when she is at the proper stage of her cycle. But if the cow is anestrous different drug protocols are sometimes used to correct the anestrous problem making them more effective than a bull because a bull cannot make a cow come into estrous. Although the cow may cycle normally in the pasture. The cow may become anestrous during AI because of nervousness or mishandling.
As far as the bull doing a better job than you, a semen straw contains, say, from 20 to 40 million spermatozoa. You can get 120 to 750 straws from 1 ejaculation. (Just numbers I pulled when doing a quick search). This would indicate that the bull would have a far better chance of having a sperm meet up with an egg if all other things were equal.

 

[regolith]

improper handling or nervousness cause anestrous?? I've never seen that.

Some of the terminology I use is specific to the country and industry I'm working in. You don't talk much about anestrous cows here. In NZ dairying they're part of what we deal with every year, and because I'm handling my cattle twice daily (so can mate on observed heats) they are the *only* cows synchronised. They are synchronised with the same drug protocols you're using.

The bull would have a better chance of conception compared to the straw if he was depositing his semen right where the straw goes. He isn't. That's why semen companies get away with splitting one ejaculate down with extender and packing it into so many straws, because it takes less to get the same result.
I have noticed differences in conception rate from straws obtained from different sources. One of the suppliers told me that the straws I'd got from them contained three times as many sperm as the LIC straws (and some were imported from the US, which has made me wonder if it's standard practise there to use higher numbers per straw).

The bulls breed the non-cyclers... the day they cycle. I've too often waited weeks for a noncycler to come in heat, put her out with a bull and seen her bred two days later to give up on putting noncyclers with bulls and expecting them to get bred. It's the speed with which they come into heat, often within four days, that convinces me that the bull is having an effect on the cycle rather than just detecting a quiet heat.

 

[novatech]

improper handling or nervousness cause anestrous?? I've never seen that.

Some of the terminology I use is specific to the country and industry I'm working in. You don't talk much about anestrous cows here. In NZ dairying they're part of what we deal with every year, and because I'm handling my cattle twice daily (so can mate on observed heats) they are the *only* cows synchronised. They are synchronised with the same drug protocols you're using.

The bull would have a better chance of conception compared to the straw if he was depositing his semen right where the straw goes. He isn't. That's why semen companies get away with splitting one ejaculate down with extender and packing it into so many straws, because it takes less to get the same result.
I have noticed differences in conception rate from straws obtained from different sources. One of the suppliers told me that the straws I'd got from them contained three times as many sperm as the LIC straws (and some were imported from the US, which has made me wonder if it's standard practise there to use higher numbers per straw).

The bulls breed the non-cyclers... the day they cycle. I've too often waited weeks for a noncycler to come in heat, put her out with a bull and seen her bred two days later to give up on putting noncyclers with bulls and expecting them to get bred. It's the speed with which they come into heat, often within four days, that convinces me that the bull is having an effect on the cycle rather than just detecting a quiet heat.

Non- cyclers---Those cattle that are not responding to the drug protocol?
I get what you are saying.
The bull causing the the cow to cycle---I don't know about that one, If that is what your saying.
The semen quality can vary depending on the people collecting it. I have been sold some really low quality stuff in the past. I don't know that there are any standards as to what the count has to be.