Frame Creep

[Aero]

I think if you focus on weaning weights, cow weights and feedlot ADG and feedlot conversions,

how much is enough?

1 problem with balancing weaning weights with cow weights is that by the time you realize your cows are too heavy you are at least 5 yrs down the road and already have half the herd tied up in the same genetics that arent working. selecting for stability instead of growth is the only way you can get a stable balance.

 

[smnherf]

I think if you focus on weaning weights, cow weights and feedlot ADG and feedlot conversions,

how much is enough?

How much of what is enough? I think we can go a long ways in improving feed conversions while maintaining or improving ADG too. There is no reason we can't have steers gain 4.25 plus and convert at less than 5 to 1 and not have 1700 lb cows to do it.

1 problem with balancing weaning weights with cow weights is that by the time you realize your cows are too heavy you are at least 5 yrs down the road and already have half the herd tied up in the same genetics that arent working. selecting for stability instead of growth is the only way you can get a stable balance.

Are you saying I should ignore weaning and cow weights? I see what you are saying about being five years down the road, but the same thing could be said about lots of other traits too, for example fertility.

 

[Brandonm22]

Are you saying I should ignore weaning and cow weights? I see what you are saying about being five years down the road, but the same thing could be said about lots of other traits too, for example fertility.

NO what he is saying is that a cow doesn't reach her "mature weight" until she is 4 or 5 years old. By the time you wait for the cows to be "too big" you will already have bred their daughters and the youngest half of the herd will need more nutrition for maintenance than you want too spend. Rather than pushing weaning weights up until it costs you money, ideally you go out and find genetics with BOTH acceptable weaning weights and mature weights. It is "PROBABLY" impossible to raise weaning weights every year too infinity without negatively affecting cow mature weights......The Lord knows enough people are trying though.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Raising weaning weight would be awesome if it actually had much to do with profitability which it doesn't. Probably the biggest oxymoron inthe cattle business is that if I make them big I'll make more money.

 

[SRBeef]

Raising weaning weight would be awesome if it actually had much to do with profitability which it doesn't. Probably the biggest oxymoron inthe cattle business is that if I make them big I'll make more money.

I think it depends on what market you sell into. I am looking for a fast-maturing steer that can be processed for freezer beef at about 1100 lb in 11-12 months if possible because that's a good spring market. If I can get a good weaning weight and keep him going from there I am hoping this is possible with the right genetics.

Jim

 

[smnherf]

Raising weaning weight would be awesome if it actually had much to do with profitability which it doesn't. Probably the biggest oxymoron inthe cattle business is that if I make them big I'll make more money.

I think it depends on what market you sell into. I am looking for a fast-maturing steer that can be processed for freezer beef at about 1100 lb in 11-12 months if possible because that's a good spring market. If I can get a good weaning weight and keep him going from there I am hoping this is possible with the right genetics.

Jim

I agree with NR, weaning weight is a very poor indicator of profitability. Weaning weight alone tells me very little. Now combine it with the cow weight and then it begins to mean something. A 500 lb calf from an 1800 lb cow certainly isn't were I want to be nor is a 400 lb calf from a 1300 lb cow. Now show me a noncreep fed calf weighing 520 lbs @ 165 days old nursing a 1140 lb cow and that gets my attention.

Jim, it is possibile to do just that. It will take an early maturing type animal but certainly not at all impossible.

Brian

 

[Brandonm22]

If a calf weans off at 600 lbs (205 days). To get to 1100 lbs he would need to gain ~500 lbs in ~150 days. That's 3.33 pounds per day. He won't ever do that on grass. Really, that is good performance in a feedlot eating a balanced hot ration. Actually for that kind of performance, a big growthy, late maturing type of cattle is your best bet not an early maturing type which will be laying on fat after the first 100 days on feed.

 

[Herefords.US]

Raising weaning weight would be awesome if it actually had much to do with profitability which it doesn't. Probably the biggest oxymoron inthe cattle business is that if I make them big I'll make more money.

I think it depends on what market you sell into. I am looking for a fast-maturing steer that can be processed for freezer beef at about 1100 lb in 11-12 months if possible because that's a good spring market. If I can get a good weaning weight and keep him going from there I am hoping this is possible with the right genetics.

Jim

I agree with NR, weaning weight is a very poor indicator of profitability. Weaning weight alone tells me very little. Now combine it with the cow weight and then it begins to mean something. A 500 lb calf from an 1800 lb cow certainly isn't were I want to be nor is a 400 lb calf from a 1300 lb cow. Now show me a noncreep fed calf weighing 520 lbs @ 165 days old nursing a 1140 lb cow and that gets my attention.

Jim, it is possibile to do just that. It will take an early maturing type animal but certainly not at all impossible.

Brian

Personally, I think Jim's goal of having 1100 lb finished steers at 11-12 months and their heifer calf contemporaries that will mature at 1200 lb. or less is a tall order that's pretty close to impossible - especially when using contemporary mainstream Hereford genetics, the only kind available that will have EPDs that are the tiniest bit reliable for choosing unproven Hereford bulls.

George

 

[Northern Rancher]

It's possible not sure it's profitable-we had lots of charX calves off simm/herf cows that weighed 9-1000 at ten months with no creep-we had bragging rights in the playground but that was about it.

 

[Herefords.US]

It's possible not sure it's profitable-we had lots of charX calves off simm/herf cows that weighed 9-1000 at ten months with no creep-we had bragging rights in the playground but that was about it.

Would the heifers from that cross had a mature weight of 1200 lb. or less? I think you can breed to get EITHER 1100-1200 lb. finished steers at a year OR mature cow sizes of 1200 lb. (or less) pretty easily. But getting BOTH in a single phase, single breed breeding program with consistency is going to be a very difficult task.

George

 

[Northern Rancher]

They were probably 1400 pound cows-we used to calve in January and by the time the calves hit pasture in midMay it was more like running a cow/light yearling than a cow/calf pair-we calve in May/June now and basically run double the cows we did back then and do about 25 percent of the work lol. We didn't creep feed then but those big Jan. calves do alot of grazing besides momma's milk.

 

[Herefords.US]

They were probably 1400 pound cows-we used to calve in January and by the time the calves hit pasture in midMay it was more like running a cow/light yearling than a cow/calf pair-we calve in May/June now and basically run double the cows we did back then and do about 25 percent of the work lol. We didn't creep feed then but those big Jan. calves do alot of grazing besides momma's milk.

1100-1200 lb steers at a year and heifer contemporaries that make 1400 lb mature cows is certainly a lot more realistic! :lol2:

George

 

[Brandonm22]

Personally, I think Jim's goal of having 1100 lb finished steers at 11-12 months and their heifer calf contemporaries that will mature at 1200 lb. or less is a tall order that's pretty close to impossible -
George

NR's big 3 way cross calves MIGHT weigh 1100 lbs in less than a year; but were they "FINISHED"??,.....if finished means should hang a medium USDA choice carcass. By rule of thumb, Steers out of 1400 cows typically finish somewhere around 1400 lbs. IF they stay on the cow 205 days and are butchered at 365 days, that means a 160 days or less in the feedlot. That's pushing it with a weaned calf. It "might" be doable if you wean at 165 days and can ship calves weighing ~500 lbs to the feedlot for 200 days. Average daily gains would be a more modest 3.0 lbs per day, but you probably would have to creep feed to get them that heavy that young and to avoid a transition phase at the feedlot. To precondition the calves for 30 days AND get them in the feedlot for a minimum of 200 days would mean weaning at 135 days.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Your probably right they wouldn't of graded but those milk fat babies tasted pretty good the odd time we butchered one.

 

[Brandonm22]

Your probably right they wouldn't of graded but those milk fat babies tasted pretty good the odd time we butchered one.

I am not knocking them at all, just pointing out that steers generally "finish" roughly at their mom's in good flesh mature weight (rule of thumb). Whether you have 1000 pound or 1400 pound cows you are really going to be pushing them hard to get them there in less than a year. Just pointing out that 70 pounds to 1100 pounds is an impressive 2.82 Weight per day of age. That is impressive performance for moderate framed cattle. NOT saying that it can't be done, just that most cattle/ranches would struggle doing it.

 

[smnherf]

Your probably right they wouldn't of graded but those milk fat babies tasted pretty good the odd time we butchered one.

I am not knocking them at all, just pointing out that steers generally "finish" roughly at their mom's in good flesh mature weight (rule of thumb). Whether you have 1000 pound or 1400 pound cows you are really going to be pushing them hard to get them there in less than a year. Just pointing out that 70 pounds to 1100 pounds is an impressive 2.82 Weight per day of age. That is impressive performance for moderate framed cattle. NOT saying that it can't be done, just that most cattle/ranches would struggle doing it.

Brandon, have you fed any cattle lately? I think that if steers can't gain 3.5lbs a day in the feedlot, they are below average. I know of pens of cattle that average in the upper three to low 4 lbs per day.

Just for discussions sake I quick looked up a couple of steers I sent to the National Hereford feedout.

#W19 BD 5/31/09 Dam --0117, In wt 575 Out wt 8/15/09 1480, ADG 4.67 for 185 days
#W20 BD 6/1/09 Dam --0331, In wt 580 Out wt 8/15/09 1445, ADG 4.46 for 185 days

I will let you figure WDA. Got to go finish loading semi.
Both cows are purebred cows that have been moved off of my TPR list as they haven't kept up with what I want.
They both are a little thinner harsher made cows that won't weigh over 1200lbs in good condition.

Brian

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>Both cows are purebred cows that have been moved off of my TPR list as they haven't kept up with what I want.<<

This kind of stuff chaps my arse. How can you truly be Whole Herd if you pick and choose animals that you keep in your herd list? Just goes to show that EPDs are mostly a fools game. Too much jimmying with the numbers.

 

[Brandonm22]

WDA is "weight per day of age" and it is figured by subtracting the birth weight from the end point weight and dividing that by the age (in days) and is not test ADG (which can be manipulated). I really couldn't care less what TWO steers did. That proves NOTHING, there is a healthy boss steer in every pen....(and you have to factor in the two steers that went to the sick pen and the one that died when you calculate ADG to be scientifically accurate on pen weights). I still say that it is highly unlikely that you can finish a whole calf crop year in 12 months year in and year out without pouring the grain down the throat of the nursing calves and/or their momas, without sacrificing marbling, and keeping the cows' size below 1200 lbs (in good flesh). Through out all this I have gone way out of my way to say it is POSSIBLE.

 

[smnherf]

>>Both cows are purebred cows that have been moved off of my TPR list as they haven't kept up with what I want.<<

This kind of stuff chaps my arse. How can you truly be Whole Herd if you pick and choose animals that you keep in your herd list? Just goes to show that EPDs are mostly a fools game. Too much jimmying with the numbers.

I guess everyones definition of jimmying with the numbers is different. My job as a seedstock producer is to cull the cattle that dont fit my criteria for improving my cowherd. Every registered heifer is put on TPR list before their first calf is born and then as their production comes in, if they can't keep up, they get disposal codes sent to AHA. No manipulation at all here. Should I leave open cows, bad footed cows, cows with bad dispositions, or poor producers on TPR? I know some people over the years leave their poor producers on the list so as to make their good cows production ratios better, but I don't want to compare my sale bulls or replacement heifers to animals that I have no intention of keeping as replacements or offering for bulls.

Brian

 

[WichitaLineMan]

These bad performers need to have numbers submitted so their dams and sires numbers will adjust accordingly. It's not just the animals themselves that are affected.