Frame 9 - Angus?

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russoniellov1":j7q1xogi said:
Dna test him. he´s a fake. brahman blood. period.
Period, huh? You know for sure?? You've had experience in this arena of breeding? No ear! No sheath! No color disparity! No kiddin'? Amazing deduction! :shock: :roll: But one thing for sure!! :nod: NO HEIFERS! ;-)

DOC HARRIS
 
Brandonm2":3jze1d8b said:
ollie'":3jze1d8b said:
Let me go ahead and get you on the record here brandon, If we have two bulls and one is a 6 frame 1750 lb bull and the other is a 9 frame 3500 lb bull. The 1st bull has a ww of 20 points higher than the second bull with an accuracy on both bulls of .75.... If you put these bulls on hereford cows , in your opinion , which bull would sire the heaviest set of calves.

I don't understand your being upset at my pointing out that the big ox is not proven yet. I am the one that said he would be a terminal sire afterall.

Reguarding your top question, I don't believe it is answerable. Phenotypically, common sense tells me the bigger bull SHOULD have superior performance over the smaller bull; but then 75% accuracy means that both bulls have been used by at least three different herds and according to the data the little bull's calves weigh more at weaning. Genetically, the performance of the progeny is FAR more relevant than the performance of the animal itself. In this example, if I am hunting weaning weight I would be scared of both bulls. I would be suspecting the little bull of falling back to the pack when more data is processed and the big bull would be looking like a dud, though I would suspect he could still jump. If those numbers hold to 85% accuracy, then I am perfectly willing to declare the little bull the growthier bull, even though that is not what I would have guessed back when they were two year olds.

What are these hereford cows milk epds like? :idea:
 
russoniellov1":3pduf5a1 said:
Dna test him. he´s a fake. brahman blood. period.
I would say black Holstien, then you dont have the ear to get rid of . There is some solid black Holstien , it would also explain the white on most angus udders now.
 
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.
 
Ive stated my opinion of those darn elephants before but Im gunna say it again..terminal intentions or not..to many of those heifers will work there way into the cowherd. Especially now with a shortage of heifers and some *producers* willing to stick anything black and female in front of a bull
Look for the US cowherd to continue to grow while it continues to turn black...well 1 outta2 aint bad. LOl
 
Frankie":1dy9xwke said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?
 
MikeC":1uzo4z54 said:
Frankie":1uzo4z54 said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?

I've never had an animal DNA tested, but I'd assume it would show that his pedigree is accurate.
 
Frankie":2t324xtd said:
MikeC":2t324xtd said:
Frankie":2t324xtd said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?

I've never had an animal DNA tested, but I'd assume it would show that his pedigree is accurate.

I could be wrong..but I really don't don't think it is for showing "Past" pedigree....only "Future" pedigree. If it was for verifying his "past" pedigree, his dam and sire would be submitted also for proof also.
I am relatively sure the DNA submitted on an AI bull is just a profile for determining parental proof of his calves in case there is a question down the road. It is no proof that he is "Full Blooded Angus, Charolais, or any other breed.
 
MikeC":54ecaqce said:
Frankie":54ecaqce said:
MikeC":54ecaqce said:
Frankie":54ecaqce said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?

I've never had an animal DNA tested, but I'd assume it would show that his pedigree is accurate.

I could be wrong..but I really don't don't think it is for showing "Past" pedigree....only "Future" pedigree. If it was for verifying his "past" pedigree, his dam and sire would be submitted also for proof also.
I am relatively sure the DNA submitted on an AI bull is just a profile for determining parental proof of his calves in case there is a question down the road. It is no proof that he is "Full Blooded Angus, Charolais, or any other breed.
I am not sure of Angus but some breeds require parent varification before an AI sire permit will be issued. The loop hole in the scenario is that somewhere there was a set of cattle "grandfathered" in to the system. If there is a problem in the deal it is that..and of course cows who never have blood pulled for DNA could certainly be the granddam of any bull. It is silly to think there isn't enough genetic variation within any population containing 300,000 animals to come up with any size animal.
 
I remember seeing 8 frame Anguses 14 years ago, that you could get from there to frame 9 is no great shock. The big question was how we got from frame 3 35 years ago to frame 7s and 8s. There were enough BIG Anguses out there by 1985 to work from to get to this big ox with out any cheating. If you breed this Ox to 100+ frame 7 and bigger Angus cows probability says that he will eventually sire a Frame Score 10 son.
 
I just snooped around on the Angus website for DNA info on AI sires.

It states that AI sires after 2001 had to have a DNA "Marker" type on record with the AAA. Before 2001 a "Blood Type" could be used.

The "Marker" is not a "DNA Test" for "Breed" verification as Frankie was speaking of.........it is only used for parental testing.

Blood typing was replaced with DNA because of accuracy values. Many times a parental test would be "Inconclusive" on a parental test using "Blood Type".

My only point is that some have alluded to the fact that this is not a "Fullblood" Angus and it could very well be true. Not that it matters one way or the other to me.

Frankly my dear, I don't give a ham...............
 
MikeC":3i3qq5m9 said:
Frankie":3i3qq5m9 said:
MikeC":3i3qq5m9 said:
Frankie":3i3qq5m9 said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?

I've never had an animal DNA tested, but I'd assume it would show that his pedigree is accurate.

I could be wrong..but I really don't don't think it is for showing "Past" pedigree....only "Future" pedigree. If it was for verifying his "past" pedigree, his dam and sire would be submitted also for proof also.
I am relatively sure the DNA submitted on an AI bull is just a profile for determining parental proof of his calves in case there is a question down the road. It is no proof that he is "Full Blooded Angus, Charolais, or any other breed.

I'm sure it's used to identify his calves. But several years ago there was a hot bull that, when DNA tested, turned out to be the son of the clean up bull, not the AI sire shown on his registration certificate. And there's a story floating around about a cow that was bought from and left to be flushed at one of the big operations. When a heifer from the flush was DNA tested to be flushed, they found out that a bull calf in the same pen as the cow had bred her before she was flushed. They traced him down and verified his DNA. So, in those instances at least, it is also used to verify parentage when animals are to be flushed or AIed.
 
Frankie":18zs2gsv said:
MikeC":18zs2gsv said:
Frankie":18zs2gsv said:
MikeC":18zs2gsv said:
Frankie":18zs2gsv said:
Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested. He's got a pedigree full of big animals, Fly Traveler, MAX, Great Western, Krugerrand. He probably never missed a meal his whole life. The suprise would be if he wasn't a big bull.

I know that an AI bull has to have a DNA profile on record before calves can be registered, but is it a DNA "Breed" test, or is it just a profile for future reference in parental testing?

Just wondering?

I've never had an animal DNA tested, but I'd assume it would show that his pedigree is accurate.

I could be wrong..but I really don't don't think it is for showing "Past" pedigree....only "Future" pedigree. If it was for verifying his "past" pedigree, his dam and sire would be submitted also for proof also.
I am relatively sure the DNA submitted on an AI bull is just a profile for determining parental proof of his calves in case there is a question down the road. It is no proof that he is "Full Blooded Angus, Charolais, or any other breed.

I'm sure it's used to identify his calves. But several years ago there was a hot bull that, when DNA tested, turned out to be the son of the clean up bull, not the AI sire shown on his registration certificate. And there's a story floating around about a cow that was bought from and left to be flushed at one of the big operations. When a heifer from the flush was DNA tested to be flushed, they found out that a bull calf in the same pen as the cow had bred her before she was flushed. They traced him down and verified his DNA. So, in those instances at least, it is also used to verify parentage when animals are to be flushed or AIed.

Correct. Every 50th embryo transfer calf has to be DNA typed to the sire AND dam with the AICA. You have no way of knowing who that "50th" registration would be, therefore keeping everyone honest.

But as you said before:

Before any bull can be used AI, the Angus Assn requires he be DNA tested. Is semen available on this bull? Then he's been DNA tested.

The question was....................IS HE FULL BLOODED ANGUS?

The DNA sample submitted on this bull could not verify his entire lineage and CANNOT be used to verify he is a "FULL BLOODED ANGUS".It could indentify parents, etc but not "Percentage of Angus". The "Breed" DNA test for Angus and Brahma was patented only two years ago.

Anyway, no big deal. I don't have a problem with his size as long as I don't have to feed him.
;-)
 
Since I know the people that raised this bull and have looked him over I have to say I wouldn't be afraid to use him. Yes he is huge, but it wasn't that long ago that we were breeding everything big. This being said it's no surprise with his bloodline that he grew (I know this was said before just emphising). Another thing to look at is what kind of cattle these people raise. This herd tends to be on the large end of the scale. Everything all said and done and at the price of the semen I will use him this year on 5or6 cows.
 
norriscathy":1x1lgptz said:
With only a +2 BW EPD he looks like a perfect heifer bull to me!

I would wait for more data. As big as that bull is, it is LIKELY that his calves will be heavier than that. He could be the ultimate curve bender; but when Doc Harris sees him and tells us "don't use him on heifers his feet are like dinner plates" I am really inclined to believe him.
 
Brandonm2":1zhb52nn said:
norriscathy":1zhb52nn said:
With only a +2 BW EPD he looks like a perfect heifer bull to me!

I would wait for more data. As big as that bull is, it is LIKELY that his calves will be heavier than that. He could be the ultimate curve bender; but when Doc Harris sees him and tells us "don't use him on heifers his feet are like dinner plates" I am really inclined to believe him.

I'm just being facetious; I totally agree with Doc. Just trying to use this as an example of why I put very little faith in EPD's.
 
I think I also saw this bull last fall at KILE, Harrisburg, Pa. Owners/herdsmen weren't around, but other breeders said the farm had HUGE cattle throughout the herd. He was really well balanced, muscled, BIG FOOTED, "pretty" bull, besides being HUGE. Weighed 3000 at that time.
 

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