Force balancing tires

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TCRanch

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Can anyone explain force balancing - in remedial terms?

I've had my 2016 F250 since 9/16 (some of you may remember my epic truck saga) and it has always started to shake when I get to around 65 mph. I basically got used to it, figured the tires needed balanced, but never got around to taking it in. Hubby drove it not too long ago and was shocked, said his Man Truck drove waaaay better than mine (Silverado 3500, dually, flat bed). So I finally took it back to the dealer and their diagnosis as follows: "Checked all tires for road force balance and found that all tires were out of spec. 91#, 46#, 80#, 56#. Tried to perform match mount on all tires and they would not get within spec. Below 40#. Installed 4 new tires. 2 of the new tires were not within spec. One I was able to force match and one other I had to replace with a new one. Post test drive found no other problems with vibration at highway speeds."

The old & new tires are Michelin, 10 ply (new ones are LT275/65R20). So, am I just a magnet for "bad" tires, are Michelin junk or should I be concerned there's something structurally wrong with my truck if numerous tires have to be force balanced?

BTW, this was all fortunately under warranty.
 

Craig Miller

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It measures the roundness of the tire is the best I can get from it. One of mine was at a 50 something brand new. It tire guy spent abouthe 45 minutes on it. I finally walked back into the shop to see what was up. I got the owners to come over and he balanced it within 5 minutes. I never felt any vibrations.
 

Bright Raven

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Craig Miller":374kicbz said:
It measures the roundness of the tire is the best I can get from it. One of mine was at a 50 something brand new. It tire guy spent abouthe 45 minutes on it. I finally walked back into the shop to see what was up. I got the owners to come over and he balanced it within 5 minutes. I never felt any vibrations.

I have wondered about this. Can the wheel contribute to the deforming of the tire? To explain, if the wheel is out of spec, can that cause the tire to be out of roundness? I had this problem with my old F-350. There was always one tire that was out. I began to suspect the wheel was the issue.
 

greybeard

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Can anyone explain force balancing?
There are multiple 'forces' involved in a rotating tire (and anything else that rotates) . As exacting as tire manufacturing is nowdays, the fact remains, that no 2 tires are ever exactly the same, and no one tire is exactly the same thru out it's structure. Traditionally, tires were just balanced by adding weights to offset the imperfections within that tire, and later, especially for high speed rated tires, tire shaving of the tread height and depth was added to make the balance even more exact, but even that, didn't take into consideration all the forces present.. things like sidewall height discrepancies, sidewall stiffness variations (one tire compared to another and differences of sidewall stiffness in different places within a single tire) Force balancing simply means trying to get the harmonics (what we feel as vibrations) within each tire balanced by cancelling out those harmonics and it's done by changing where the position the tires are on the vehicle (a tire may vibrate if placed on the right front but not vibrate if placed on another position) as well as by weights and by making minute changes in the periphery of the rubber itself, as well as by trying to use 4 tires that more closely have perfectly matching sidewall stiffness, overall height, interior (area where the air is kept captive) runout, external runout, tread contact patch etc.

IMO tho, it's a lot of hooey and is much like nitrogen instead of air in a tire. A great idea in a perfect world but we don't live in a perfect world. Force balancing can go right out the window by something as mundane as having a driver weighing 175 lbs and a passenger weighing 250lbs or a heavier load on the right rear than on the left rear.

To be perfectly honest tho, there's only one real way to achieve balance in the force.
At the end of a fully charged Jedi light sabre! ;-) :lol:
(listen carefully to the first few words around 2:59)
https://youtu.be/hEcjgJSqSRU?t=146
 

Bright Raven

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greybeard":3dkjc1ri said:
Can anyone explain force balancing?
There are multiple 'forces' involved in a rotating tire (and anything else that rotates) . As exacting as tire manufacturing is nowdays, the fact remains, that no 2 tires are ever exactly the same, and no one tire is exactly the same thru out it's structure. Traditionally, tires were just balanced by adding weights to offset the imperfections within that tire, and later, especially for high speed rated tires, tire shaving of the tread height and depth was added to make the balance even more exact, but even that, didn't take into consideration all the forces present.. things like sidewall height discrepancies, sidewall stiffness variations (one tire compared to another and differences of sidewall stiffness in different places within a single tire) Force balancing simply means trying to get the harmonics (what we feel as vibrations) within each tire balanced by cancelling out those harmonics and it's done by changing where the position the tires are on the vehicle (a tire may vibrate if placed on the right front but not vibrate if placed on another position) as well as by weights and by making minute changes in the periphery of the rubber itself, as well as by trying to use 4 tires that more closely have perfectly matching sidewall stiffness, overall height, interior (area where the air is kept captive) runout, external runout, tread contact patch etc.

IMO tho, it's a lot of hooey and is much like nitrogen instead of air in a tire. A great idea in a perfect world but we don't live in a perfect world. Force balancing can go right out the window by something as mundane as having a driver weighing 175 lbs and a passenger weighing 250lbs or a heavier load on the right rear than on the left rear.

To be perfectly honest tho, there's only one real way to achieve balance in the force.
At the end of a fully charged Jedi light sabre! ;-) :lol:
(listen carefully to the first few words around 2:59)
https://youtu.be/hEcjgJSqSRU?t=146

GB.
I was told by an older guy who works at Tire World that the best balance was achieved by the old system of spinning the tire/ wheel while it was on your car. He said that balances the tire, wheel, spindle, everything in motion is balanced. He said taking the wheel off is now the norm but it leaves some of the things in motion unbalanced.
 

greybeard

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Bright Raven":92b90lu9 said:
GB.
I was told by an older guy who works at Tire World that the best balance was achieved by the old system of spinning the tire/ wheel while it was on your car. He said that balances the tire, wheel, spindle, everything in motion is balanced. He said taking the wheel off is now the norm but it leaves some of the things in motion unbalanced.
In most instances that is correct, but.... it doesn't address what force balancing is trying to do. They're taking it a step or 2 farther. Spin balancing a single tire on the vehicle doesn't do anything towards the minute harmonics that are transmitted down the drivelines to the other 3 rotating assemblies and it's the interactions between all 4 rotating assemblies that force balancing attempts to negate or offset. No tire/wheel assembly is ever perfectly balanced, and if we were riding on a single tire, unicycle style, balancing that one assy would be perfect, but we ride on 4 tires and wheels and each can have an adverse effect on any or all of the others.
While we may not feel the imperfect balance effects of any given rotating mass, the combined effects from those little imperfections within each rotating mass can be enough for us to feel it in the steering wheel or thru the floorboard. Force balancing attempts to take into consideration all possible dynamics as we feel them when the entire vehicle rolls down the road.
 

Bright Raven

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greybeard":bjbdsgp7 said:
Bright Raven":bjbdsgp7 said:
GB.
I was told by an older guy who works at Tire World that the best balance was achieved by the old system of spinning the tire/ wheel while it was on your car. He said that balances the tire, wheel, spindle, everything in motion is balanced. He said taking the wheel off is now the norm but it leaves some of the things in motion unbalanced.
In most instances that is correct, but.... it doesn't address what force balancing is trying to do. They're taking it a step or 2 farther. Spin balancing a single tire on the vehicle doesn't do anything towards the minute harmonics that are transmitted down the drivelines to the other 3 rotating assemblies and it's the interactions between all 4 rotating assemblies that force balancing attempts to negate or offset. No tire/wheel assembly is ever perfectly balanced, and if we were riding on a single tire, unicycle style, balancing that one assy would be perfect, but we ride on 4 tires and wheels and each can have an adverse effect on any or all of the others.
While we may not feel the imperfect balance effects of any given rotating mass, the combined effects from those little imperfections within each rotating mass can be enough for us to feel it in the steering wheel or thru the floorboard. Force balancing attempts to take into consideration all possible dynamics as we feel them when the entire vehicle rolls down the road.
Good information. Never thought about it on that basis even though it is logical to do so.
Thanks.

I never did get my old truck to feel perfect. Even the 2014 F-250 I have has some mild vibration in the steering wheel.
 

Nesikep

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GB, good description of what they're trying to accomplish, but for heavens sake, this is a truck, not a formula 1 car! I can see the importance of that in other applications.
I've taken to mounting my own tires, 3 sets of tires later I still haven't ever balanced them on my truck and it feels fine... Maybe my roads are just too rough to ever notice it.
 

greybeard

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Nesikep":1co3xl0b said:
GB, good description of what they're trying to accomplish, but for heavens sake, this is a truck, not a formula 1 car! I can see the importance of that in other applications.
I've taken to mounting my own tires, 3 sets of tires later I still haven't ever balanced them on my truck and it feels fine... Maybe my roads are just too rough to ever notice it.
I fully agree..it's a truck. I have never even rotated the tires on my daily driver truck. When they wear, I just buy new ones.
I was just trying to answer the question that was asked.

If asked if it was worth all the trouble I would have said 'No, and while it may be close to Memorial Day you aren't named AJ and aren't driving at the brickyard'.
 

DLD

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It's my understanding that the 20" wheels and the corresponding low profile 10 ply tires are harder to get balanced. Something about the short, stiff sidewall maybe? The extra weight of the wheel in relation to the tire could have something to do with it too.
 

True Grit Farms

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DLD":s23vwjdr said:
It's my understanding that the 20" wheels and the corresponding low profile 10 ply tires are harder to get balanced. Something about the short, stiff sidewall maybe? The extra weight of the wheel in relation to the tire could have something to do with it too.

Humm, I was told that a larger wheel is easier to balance and true. And a thinner and lighter tire was easier to true and balance. I thought this was a very real possibility because everything that's designed to travel at high speeds has small tires and oversized wheels?
 

Atimm693

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DLD":icsuy49f said:
It's my understanding that the 20" wheels and the corresponding low profile 10 ply tires are harder to get balanced. Something about the short, stiff sidewall maybe? The extra weight of the wheel in relation to the tire could have something to do with it too.

Mine too, if nothing else, a lot less forgiving.

The local tire shop is behind the curve by about 20 years. If they balance my low profile car tires, it'll shake so bad you can't hold onto the steering wheel, if they balance my truck tires, smooth sailing.

I still have some trouble finding a shop that can balance the low profile tires on my car. It normally takes a couple tries before they get it right.

And if the low profile tires get any ice, road dust, or mud built up in the wheels, they really get thrown out of balance, more so than regular tires.
 

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