? For the experts.

[City Guy]

RafterS, Let me rephrase my statement.

If a person is a hobby farmer that person should get what that person likes. If, on the other hand, a person is in the cattle business (or any business) for the money that person should deal in what the market is demanding.

BTW: It's not a disgrace or embarrassment to be a hobby farmer, is it?

 

[Muddy]

RafterS, Let me rephrase my statement.

If a person is a hobby farmer that person should get what that person likes. If, on the other hand, a person is in the cattle business (or any business) for the money that person should deal in what the market is demanding.

BTW: It's not a disgrace or embarrassment to be a hobby farmer, is it?

Maybe you should just stay in the cities.

 

[Rafter S]

Okay CG,

By some people's definition I'm sure I'm a hobby farmer, since I have a relatively small number of cattle, and they aren't my primary source of income. However, hobby or not, they have to pay for themselves. I don't prefer cattle, and bulls especially, with good solid bones just because I think they're more aesthetically pleasing. I do select my cattle on what the market wants and what makes me money.

 

[elkwc]

Anecdotes and hearsay is not "proven". Scientific experimentation leads to proof. Has there ever been a scientific study?

This is not an edited or hearsay. It is real world facts learned by those in the business. Those who have to pay the bills, pay the notes and buy the ranches. Those who follow their cattle and see them hang on the rail. Talked to one of them Friday. I place way more trust in what they say than a controlled scientific experiment by someone who has never dealt with the real world.[/quote

When you "talked to one on friday" is the definition of "hearsay". They "said" and you "heard". That's fine to trust that fella, but it's still hearsay unless he has data that has been statistically analyzed. I would find what he has to say helpful as well in my decision making process. However much you dislike the idea, a "controlled scientific experiment" preferably by someone outside the cattle pen is the best way for objective information. I never said your information was wrong or bad, I said it doesn't mean something is "proven"

I raise cattle - going on 20 years. I am a producer. I have "real world experience". I am not a scientist. But I know science has something to offer us in the way it does their "controlled scientific experiments". It may or may not contradict what us "real world folks" have come to know. That's ok.

This is not an edited or hearsay. It is real world facts learned by those in the business. Those who have to pay the bills, pay the notes and buy the ranches. Those who follow their cattle and see them hang on the rail. Talked to one of them Friday. I place way more trust in what they say than a controlled scientific experiment by someone who has never dealt with the real world.

When you "talked to one on friday" is the definition of "hearsay". They "said" and you "heard". That's fine to trust that fella, but it's still hearsay unless he has data that has been statistically analyzed. I would find what he has to say helpful as well in my decision making process. However much you dislike the idea, a "controlled scientific experiment" preferably by someone outside the cattle pen is the best way for objective information. I never said your information was wrong or bad, I said it doesn't mean something is "proven".

I raise cattle - going on 20 years. I am a producer. I have "real world experience". I am not a scientist. But I know science has something to offer us in the way it does their "controlled scientific experiments". It may or may not contradict what us "real world folks" have come to know. That's ok.

No it wasn't hearsay. When he has the close out sheets and how they graded and yielded it isn't hearsay it is fact. It is obvious many of you don't have a clue about the ral feedlot world. You need to get in a pu with a manager and a lap full of pen sheets and drive the allyeys. Then look at the cost of gain and the type including bone type. My Dad used to sort the calves from large ranches (400-800) into pen lots by type and quality. It was very obvious the difference type and quality make. This is real world testing and facts way more beneficial than sone controlled scientific research.

 

[WalnutCrest]

[trolling]

So ... science is bad?

[/trolling]

 

[City Guy]

I am not making myself clear, and I'm sorry. What I am talking about is PROFIT, not performance, rate of gain, ADG, grade or yield. Not EPDs or bragging rights, or trophies, or bone size or hide thickness, but PILES OF MONEY I can put in my pocket.

PROFIT=Income-expenses! True whether one is producing cattle or refrigerators or lipstick. A piece of crap refrigerator can make more profit than the top of the line model because it cost far less to produce. Same for cattle or lipstick. NOW, I AM NOT SAYING THAT"S TRUE. Just that it COULD BE true. Has any one ever tested it scientifically? Surely someone has--it being so vitally important! Where are those studies? Buried in a drawer at some Land Grant College or bureaucrats file cabinet?

Walking around a feedlot (or warehouse or retail store) with a guy who can show me how my product's quality trounced the competition doesn't tell me how much profit I actually made. I can be proud of my product and get the highest price for it and still lose my shirt. The profit formula stated above says nothing about performance, or size, or quality, or speed, or timing, or hard work, or knowledge, or investment, or years in business, or family connections, or lack thereof. Profit has only two ingredients: Income and Expenses. All these other things affect the formula, of course, but none of them is, by itself, synonymous with profit or loss.

 

[elkwc]

City Guy all the info you talked about and more are on the close out sheets. Not only do you see the profit/loss per head but usually a comparison to all other cattle of a similar weight put in the lot at the same time. Most of the time the heavier boned better quality animal will finish 2-4 weeks sooner and the cost of gain will be much less thus more profit. The research is done everyday when a pen is sold.

 

[Chocolate Cow]

Temple Grandin has proven heavy boned cattle tend to have a more docile disposition which leads to quicker weight gain and better health. Lighter or fine boned animals tend to be more flighty or nervous which isn't good for weight gain or health.

 

[elkwc]

I have a very heavy boned calf. His sire is a top son of Hoover Dam and his Dam is a good daughter of War Party. He is 25-50 heavier than anything else his age and also like Chocolate Cow state very docile.

The chicken boned cattle take longer to finish and the cost of gain is higher.

 

[RanchMan90]

I am not making myself clear, and I'm sorry. What I am talking about is PROFIT, not performance, rate of gain, ADG, grade or yield. Not EPDs or bragging rights, or trophies, or bone size or hide thickness, but PILES OF MONEY I can put in my pocket.

PROFIT=Income-expenses! True whether one is producing cattle or refrigerators or lipstick. A piece of crap refrigerator can make more profit than the top of the line model because it cost far less to produce. Same for cattle or lipstick. NOW, I AM NOT SAYING THAT"S TRUE. Just that it COULD BE true. Has any one ever tested it scientifically? Surely someone has--it being so vitally important! Where are those studies? Buried in a drawer at some Land Grant College or bureaucrats file cabinet?

Walking around a feedlot (or warehouse or retail store) with a guy who can show me how my product's quality trounced the competition doesn't tell me how much profit I actually made. I can be proud of my product and get the highest price for it and still lose my shirt. The profit formula stated above says nothing about performance, or size, or quality, or speed, or timing, or hard work, or knowledge, or investment, or years in business, or family connections, or lack thereof. Profit has only two ingredients: Income and Expenses. All these other things affect the formula, of course, but none of them is, by itself, synonymous with profit or loss.

What are to talking about CG, longhorns? That's the only non dairy breed of fine boned cattle I can think of. Sure they can be bought at deep discounts of 30% less than heavier boned feeder cattle. Is that 30% enough to cover their extended stay in the feedyard due to less efficiency and less percentage of choice and prime carcasses?

 

[KNERSIE]

Temple Grandin has proven heavy boned cattle tend to have a more docile disposition which leads to quicker weight gain and better health. Lighter or fine boned animals tend to be more flighty or nervous which isn't good for weight gain or health.

Interesting... wonder whether it isn't more breed (breed make up) orientated. I can think of a few lighter boned breeds that are certainly more flighty.

 

[City Guy]

RM90, You're missing the point and getting it at the same time. Using the profit formula in the Longhorn example one would conclude that there is little or no profit to be made feeding Longhorns in a commercial feedlot. The fact that they have thin bones is not a factor.

There are dozens of fine boned beef and dual purpose cattle breeds on this planet: Brazadais, Barzona, Mashona, Parthenais, Piedmontese, Tarentaise to name some of the more popular ones. All are making a profit for someone somewhere or they would be extinct.

 

[City Guy]

elkwc, All cattle producers have expenses BEFORE their cattle go into a feedlot that must be paid before profit/loss can be calculated.

 

[RanchMan90]

RM90, You're missing the point and getting it at the same time. Using the profit formula in the Longhorn example one would conclude that there is little or no profit to be made feeding Longhorns in a commercial feedlot. The fact that they have thin bones is not a factor.

There are dozens of fine boned beef and dual purpose cattle breeds on this planet: Brazadais, Barzona, Mashona, Parthenais, Piedmontese, Tarentaise to name some of the more popular ones. All are making a profit for someone somewhere or they would be extinct.

I hear ya. What's your profit formula for these finer boned cattle? Would they have to be taken through different marketing channels?

 

[City Guy]

RM90, Too many business people and especially farmers it seems approach things haphazardly. They buy cattle somewhere and then try to decide how to market them. Any business needs to decide who their customer is FIRST, then work backwards to provide what the customer wants. How many times have we read on CT "I bought these heifers at the sale barn, don't know much about them,but.........."? Pardon my bluntness, but that's just ignorant.

 

[RanchMan90]

A good heavy boned calf will market itself. I get the Kit Pharo philosophy of smaller frame lower input cattle, even they have good bone and have to meet industry standards.

 

[Muddy]

RM90, You're missing the point and getting it at the same time. Using the profit formula in the Longhorn example one would conclude that there is little or no profit to be made feeding Longhorns in a commercial feedlot. The fact that they have thin bones is not a factor.

There are dozens of fine boned beef and dual purpose cattle breeds on this planet: Brazadais, Barzona, Mashona, Parthenais, Piedmontese, Tarentaise to name some of the more popular ones. All are making a profit for someone somewhere or they would be extinct.

These breeds you mentioned are not even popular or common in United States and most of these breeds are strictly niche market breeds. Heck some of the breeds are practically non existent in United States.

 

[elkwc]

RM90, You're missing the point and getting it at the same time. Using the profit formula in the Longhorn example one would conclude that there is little or no profit to be made feeding Longhorns in a commercial feedlot. The fact that they have thin bones is not a factor.

There are dozens of fine boned beef and dual purpose cattle breeds on this planet: Brazadais, Barzona, Mashona, Parthenais, Piedmontese, Tarentaise to name some of the more popular ones. All are making a profit for someone somewhere or they would be extinct.

I hear ya. What's your profit formula for these finer boned cattle? Would they have to be taken through different marketing channels?

The profit formula for those cattle are too dock them enough when you buy them to offset the increased cost of feeding them. That includes Corrientes and poor quality cattle of the major breeds. Just because they are Angus, Hereford, Char or any other breed doesn't mean they will feed efficiently and make a profit.

I know cattlemen and feeders who have made money feeding the lower quality light boned cattle. I have fed some myself. I I always sold them privately. They are good eating just require more to feed them. It is very obvious City Guy has no idea about the real cattle world. He has read a few comments on this site and maybe a few others and judge all cattlemen by that. Shows how short sided he is. These men wouldn't have made a living for their families and paid for their farms/ranches if they weren't very good businessmen who did their homework very well. They can tell you the cost of feeding each type down to items as increased death loss in certain types. It is hard to inform someone that isn't willing to listen. Someone that thinks the only information that is correct is that from a scientific study. My BIL fed cattle for over 35 years and made money doing it. He didn't make money because of luck. I encourage anyone that thinks so to buy a pen of cattle and feed them. You will get an education that will last a lifetime.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Temple Grandin has proven heavy boned cattle tend to have a more docile disposition which leads to quicker weight gain and better health. Lighter or fine boned animals tend to be more flighty or nervous which isn't good for weight gain or health.

Interesting... wonder whether it isn't more breed (breed make up) orientated. I can think of a few lighter boned breeds that are certainly more flighty.

I think you could make a case that heavy boned beef cattle have had more selection pressure than "wild" finer boned animals.

 

[KNERSIE]

Temple Grandin has proven heavy boned cattle tend to have a more docile disposition which leads to quicker weight gain and better health. Lighter or fine boned animals tend to be more flighty or nervous which isn't good for weight gain or health.

Interesting... wonder whether it isn't more breed (breed make up) orientated. I can think of a few lighter boned breeds that are certainly more flighty.

I think you could make a case that heavy boned beef cattle have had more selection pressure than "wild" finer boned animals.

Valid point, most "extensive" breeds are more flighty and they are almost all much finer boned.

I'm not Grandin's biggest fan, in fact I think her expertise is limited to simulation models in the office, so I would not be suprised if this bit of research simply isn't just yet another thesis for yet another useless PhD.