Flushing with sexed semen ?

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Fire Sweep Ranch":2mjsvwit said:
It was about 5 years ago, maybe 6. Dr. Spears is at the top of his game, so do tell what he says when you ask him, I'd be curious to know.
I am not sold on IVF either. I bought two sets of IVF embryos, one set I knew was IVF, the other were advertised as conventional but when they arrived and we put one in, it was IVF. I have put two in, one stuck. My embryologist likes to have the recip about 24 hours out farther with an IVF (so 8 days instead of 7), he said he has better luck. So now that we know the second set is IVF, we can plan better.

Kris, I sent Dr. Spears the following message to get an update on IVF. As I recall, he told me it has been improved.

Dr. Spears. I ask you once before about IVF in cattle. Please give me a brief response on how IVF embryos compare today with traditional flushed embryos in regard to viability and conception.
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":i6bgr0ed said:
Will be interesting to hear his comments.

Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF
 
Bright Raven":1kh0xk0f said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1kh0xk0f said:
Will be interesting to hear his comments.

Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF

very interesting
 
When we have done IVF, they can "reverse sort" the semen at the time of fertilization. The sorting is both for viability and sex as I understand it. You use standard unsorted semen for this process.

We have gotten bull calves from sorted semen before, but never from the IVF sorting process.
 
Bright Raven":1jvilr96 said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":1jvilr96 said:
Will be interesting to hear his comments.

Kris/Jeanne: here is Dr. Spears response.

We see about a 20% drop in preg rate versus conventional. Would not try sexed semen on conventional. Works better in IVF
Exactly what my embryologist has said all along. IVF embryos vary from donor to donor, some have excellent results and some never stick. The technology has come a long ways, but it still is not at the same level as conventional. With IVF, it is important to get the donor collection sheet to know what stage they were froze at, and on most we put in the IVF frozen embryo one day later (day 8 instead of day 7).
If I wanted heifers from a flush, I would use IVF and take the lower conceptions. I would also set up recips to put in embryos fresh, and not frozen.
We will have our own little experiment here; a good customer of ours (bought a bull and cows from us) bought some IVF heifer embryos, sired by Milestone (and Stella Y5243). He never uses embryos, and asked if I could take one of his cows and implant for him, and he would give me the other two for my troubles. Worth the chance, he is bringing the cow out in March and I will keep her until she either passes 70 days OR I will AI her for him if she does not stick the embryo. I will get to try the other two on my own cows, all three eggs are 7-2 or 6-2 stage. Sure would love a heifer out of that mating.... one can dream, right?
 
It's interesting to hear Dr. Spears say that.

I use Multigen here in Kentucky and they have had great results using sexed semen conventional for us and they certainly do not discourage its use.

Also, while IVF has come a long ways, I know a lot of buyers and auctioneers for that matter that don't trust it. I don't buy any IVF embryos myself.
 
SchenkAngusFarm: I had a cow come up with 20 unfertilized eggs on a conventional flush just about a month ago or so. Prior to that she flushed 18 good eggs. Both using conventional semen.

Fire Sweep: could you explain the 6-2 or 7-2 stages for me? Never heard anyone talk about stages and label them.
 
So, when an embryo is collected, it is graded and scored. Based on that grade, the best ones are frozen (if not enough recips) and the poor ones are implanted or thrown away. The first number is based on the grade, with 5 being the best. We have had great luck implanting 4 and 5 stage embryos. Almost no one freezes a 7 or higher, or lower than a 3, that I know of. Most embryos are sold with a guarantee, buy three and they guarantee one pregnancy. No one wants to refund money, so the best are set up to sell. Here is a chart that is really good:
2a8kako.jpg


The second number represents the quality of the embryo; how the zona pellicuda looks and such. A 1 is best, but a two is acceptable. We have put in 2's with good luck. It is said that a 2 will more likely be a heifer, but looking back at my data that is not necessarily true. Here is another good picture:
14mudfl.jpg


Here is an actual microscope pic of what they look like, at different stages:
30jjnub.jpg


So, you can see, the 6 and 7 are earlier maturing, and further along in development. It is my embryologists opinion that those need to go in cows that are on day 8, not day 7. This is our first season dealing with this, since 99% of the embryos I buy and put in are a 4 or 5, stage 1 or 2. I have the same conception on a 4-2 as I do on a 5-1. I bought some embryos that have came in as 6-1 and 7-1, in conventional, my vet said that is acceptable (but not desirable). In IVF, we need to be more picky about the recips and where they are in the cycle (day 8 versus 7).
Until this fall, I never messed with IVF, and really do not want to. I bought one set of eggs, knowing they were IVF, but have a great relationship with the seller (I have bought and put in numerous conventional embryos from them). They arrived as 5-1s. We put one in in December, and it stuck. I bought two sets from a dispersal sale the fall (same cow, different sires), advertised as conventional. When the embryos arrived, there was no paperwork (most come with the collection paperwork so you know what you are getting). They were sold as conventional, however when we put one in, the straw identified it as IVF. Not only that, it was a 7-2! Of course, it did not stick. I called up the company that made the embryos, and got the collection sheets (one set was IVF, one set was conventional). ALL of the embryos in that IVF lot (6 of them) are either 6 or 7, and quality 1 or 2. SO, any future recip I put those in will need to be on day 8 for our best chances.

That was probably WAY more information than what you wanted to know!
 
Fire Sweep Ranch":1p0jq6am said:
So, when an embryo is collected, it is graded and scored. Based on that grade, the best ones are frozen (if not enough recips) and the poor ones are implanted or thrown away. The first number is based on the grade, with 5 being the best. We have had great luck implanting 4 and 5 stage embryos. Almost no one freezes a 7 or higher, or lower than a 3, that I know of. Most embryos are sold with a guarantee, buy three and they guarantee one pregnancy. No one wants to refund money, so the best are set up to sell. Here is a chart that is really good:
2a8kako.jpg


The second number represents the quality of the embryo; how the zona pellicuda looks and such. A 1 is best, but a two is acceptable. We have put in 2's with good luck. It is said that a 2 will more likely be a heifer, but looking back at my data that is not necessarily true. Here is another good picture:
14mudfl.jpg


Here is an actual microscope pic of what they look like, at different stages:
30jjnub.jpg


So, you can see, the 6 and 7 are earlier maturing, and further along in development. It is my embryologists opinion that those need to go in cows that are on day 8, not day 7. This is our first season dealing with this, since 99% of the embryos I buy and put in are a 4 or 5, stage 1 or 2. I have the same conception on a 4-2 as I do on a 5-1. I bought some embryos that have came in as 6-1 and 7-1, in conventional, my vet said that is acceptable (but not desirable). In IVF, we need to be more picky about the recips and where they are in the cycle (day 8 versus 7).
Until this fall, I never messed with IVF, and really do not want to. I bought one set of eggs, knowing they were IVF, but have a great relationship with the seller (I have bought and put in numerous conventional embryos from them). They arrived as 5-1s. We put one in in December, and it stuck. I bought two sets from a dispersal sale the fall (same cow, different sires), advertised as conventional. When the embryos arrived, there was no paperwork (most come with the collection paperwork so you know what you are getting). They were sold as conventional, however when we put one in, the straw identified it as IVF. Not only that, it was a 7-2! Of course, it did not stick. I called up the company that made the embryos, and got the collection sheets (one set was IVF, one set was conventional). ALL of the embryos in that IVF lot (6 of them) are either 6 or 7, and quality 1 or 2. SO, any future recip I put those in will need to be on day 8 for our best chances.

That was probably WAY more information than what you wanted to know!

Presented like a Professor. :clap:

You da lady!
 
Dr. Spears sent some details. This is good information:

IVF embryos are very fragile, frozen rates are sometimes comparable to traditional, the range of success is much more varied. Fresh IVF transfer success is likewise extremely variable. We really haven't gotten "our arms around" how the control the variability. We just finished freezing last weeks IVF aspirations. We froze 76 %?of the embryos shipped back in incubators from TransOva Maryland. If we could get consistent 50% success rate with IVF embryos, traditional flushing would be very limited.
 
Does anyone on here know what the cost of an IVF flush is now ? Since only one straw would probably be used instead of 4 there may not be that much difference. I`m mainly trying to build a better cow herd so having bull calves that will just become steers for the sale barn could be pretty a pretty costly gamble. It would be pretty hard to market the bulls around here since most of the guys would have a fit if you asked more than $1500-$2000 for a breeding age bull since most don`t really care about quality they just want a calf to sell and then wonder why there calves don`t bring much.
 
I am going to raise the first bull I have raised in five years just because I like him and his mother so much....
I laid out grazing paddocks for him over the weekend to better manage his grazing.
he will get good grass and about ten lbs of feed per day...
We will use him as cleanup on heifers and a few cows next fall...
you can bet your bippy he will be at least 3000.00 in my pocket before he leaves here. If he grows up to his potential then possibly more....
His mother will be preg examed and fetal sexed on March 2nd and I am pretty sure she has a Jipsey Earl Bull in her now...so he will be a keeper too....would rather have a heifer.
 
jd720":zx9dy3nu said:
Does anyone on here know what the cost of an IVF flush is now ? Since only one straw would probably be used instead of 4 there may not be that much difference. I`m mainly trying to build a better cow herd so having bull calves that will just become steers for the sale barn could be pretty a pretty costly gamble. It would be pretty hard to market the bulls around here since most of the guys would have a fit if you asked more than $1500-$2000 for a breeding age bull since most don`t really care about quality they just want a calf to sell and then wonder why there calves don`t bring much.

It depends on where you go and what you do (storage, drugs, etc.) but it seems about $1500-$3000 per flush. I know that's a big range but there are a lot of variables.
 
For what its worth, you have good yrs and bad yrs, no matter if its conventional or IVF. never used IVF and as long as I get along ok with sexed semen ill stay conventional. Figure when its all done up over the yrs I run about 50% with flushes and getting the recips to take.
jd720 Id think the IVF cost will depend a lot on who is doing your work and how far they have to travel, buddy of mine did IVF for 3 yrs said the female thing works out great but hes done, the cost is to great for the amount of calves hittn the ground( I don't know)
 
FSR: thanks for that, I knew embryos were graded and the #2s were usually put in fresh, but I didn't know that they were also labeled by stage.

An IVF here runs about 3k and that's including a reverse sort. If they could get a better and more consistent pregnancy rate I would use that solely.
 

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